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Old 11-08-2004   #31
Join Date: Dec 2003
Posts: 71

Sorry, I am not the quickest at the computer, and your (and Andy's) posts were up only after I started to post. Anyhow, the point stands that on another thread I read some peice about the election that carried on blaming Kerry's loss on all sorts of social issues without even the mention of terrorism. Out of touch...


point by point? Are you responding to my post? If so, read it again. And try to figure out where in MT the blue counties are. Perhaps someone has some IQ info on these counties.

For fun, I saw some jerk on the news a couple of weeks ago who studies IQ levels. He said at 22 Bush had an IQ of something like 125. He estimated Kerry at 120. Wow, that told us alot, didn't it?

And Matty, I don't think many of us are making alot for our time here. Sort of silly alltogether--the exact reason I try to avoid this type of thing. I mean, I'm not going to win you over, am I (are you the one who has so little in common with me?)? Whatever, the election is over, and I'm satisfied by the outcome, although the local elections here could have gone better--alot better. We'll just have to see how things turn out.

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Old 11-09-2004   #32
Join Date: Mar 2004
Posts: 18
More Loose ends

Hey guys, I was away from the 'puter for a bit, and you guys must have got back from your weekend paddles. You are just having too much fun, and not so much fun!

Too many loose ends to get to all, but I'll try. Yeah, I'm older, and have gone around in the washing machine a few times! I have seen each side win and lose, and come back and do it all over again. When one side claims the mandate and thinks that they have it all figured out, it is time for the other to remind them, that we live in America. All bets are off every four years!

A warning to those Raskily Republicans, don't get a big head over winning this time, claim the mandate, but then you have to live up to the responsibility! Part of which is to reach out to the Dems lest they feel disenfranchised from the American democratic process. I am distressed that some of the Dems feel that it is time to go to Canada. I am not saying to change what you stand for, but as good Christians we are to love our enemies, so should we not also love our neighbors who disagree with us?

On the other hand, I did hear Kerry give a concession speech. I have yet to hear some of you do the same. You only have to concede the next four years, and then we can do it all again. Like in AA, it is said to go one day at a time, and I am sure you will survive.

Now I hear that you hate Bush. I have never met him, and I don't know him personally, but those who have, say that he is very personable. I don't know the source of your hate, maybe he did something to you that you could share. What did he do to you, to make you feel so strongly? Otherwise maybe that is too strong a word. You may dislike his policies, which is a different matter, but even then, which of his policies directly affected you. Or is it PC to say "I hate Bush!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!" For some I have found they say that because they have nothing better to say. Talk about voting from your gut! if they actually voted at all!!!

Yeah, I believe character matters, and that moral values are a part of character. There has been a lot of noise about MVs, but the ones that matter most to me are not marriage issues, abortion, and gay, and lieing about military service, and what one did or didn’t say, nor economy, or terrorism. In the mud slinging, these “Facts” are bandied about like some talisman, that if enough power and noise is generated, then you win the election.

I believe that the majority of Americans vote from their heart, ( the gut.) And that GW made contact with the majority, he won the popular and the electoral vote, and Kerry did not! That now is a fact. You may not like it, you may have a hard time swallowing that pill. But the Dems need to consider that it is not having a long list of hate “facts” that will connect with the people. You have four years to get started, and it seems that you are off to a bad start!!!

Pouting and throwing temper tantrums, won’t do it. Calling folks names, and being nasty, and hateful doesn’t win us over. Being intellectual elite snobs, who know better than I, how to run my life. But the main thing is being disrespectful of the President. He represents us all. Dis’ the President, you Dis’ us, the majority, and you will lose again in four years.

Thanks, Tinkerntom, aka KnesisKnosis, Life, Live it!

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Old 11-09-2004   #33
Join Date: Mar 2004
Posts: 18
A little more on loose ends

!) Livingston, I'll be glad to tell you who I think is the best candidate, but you have to decide who you vote for. You can also check with Andy H.

2) Livingston, an impressive ref to TJ. Read all his stuff, and get back to us in four years. We could all use the education! I'll read Hamilton!

3) Mike A, thanks for the encouragement, Gulianni vs Clinton II, interesting, Hey Livingston what do you think?

4) mattyb, what is wrong with partisan lean, sorry, can't give your time back, but I'll listen to your response!

5) Liv, terrorism would have been a much larger issue, if they were still bombing our buildings and trains. Not that it could not happen, but most felt relatively safe, and credit President Bush. Otherwise our collective memory is pretty short, - that is short, not pretty!

6) Right on h2oxtc, and that is why they are still fighting so hard even tonight in Fallugah!

7) esp, I am familiar with the Cuban Missile crisis, having jumped under my desk in a Houston grade school, and practiced Duck and Cover. Scared this ten year old spit-less. No kid should grow up with that fear. That is why we must stop the tyrant before they get nuclear and WMD.

JFK1, I heard him say "Ask Not..." and the age of hope was born, He was closer to GW in a lot of his conservative policies, than Kerry. Then I saw it crushed by protest, and Vietnam, while the Dems sung about Camelot, a classmate of mine was killed by the national guard. Then LBJ, pushed us deeper into Vietnam, but tied the hands of the Military, and it became a political war, not to be won, but to be talked about. Let us win the current war, not just talk about it! I lost to many friends in Vietnam, let us not do that again.

JFK 2 tried to use the initials of JFK 1 to rebuild Camelot, even to being a PT boat commander, happily it failed. The great society has already cost much to much, with little to show for it but some Lady Bird flower pots, and a few less billboards, and a whole lot more welfare dependent victims.

9) Matobs, Politics is partisan, to complain about partisan politics is to imply that somehow if we all agreed with you we would no longer be partisan, and that would sure be boring. I agree with you though that the majority is not always right. The lady, that first told me about Jesus, was a black woman, Matty, when I lived in Houston, early '60, when there were still separate restrooms and water fountains for the colored. Try to explain that to a 10 year old. I was raised as an atheist, I still love and thank God for Matty!

10) JimmyMcG, You are correct also, most don't agree completely, but you have to take a stand where what you do believe is best represented. That is why we call it representative government.

11) Finally Mike A, back to the IQ thing, indeed silly, especially if after all is said and done, we are not smart enough to figure out how to paddle together. That is what I have found I appreciate the most about Paddlers. The current takes us all to the same place.
Thanks, Tinkerntom, aka KnesisKnosis, Life, Live it!

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Old 11-09-2004   #34
Join Date: Nov 2003
Posts: 112

You missed my point.

I am not saying that we all need to agree at all times, nor that somehow without partisan politics everything would be happy. What I am saying that this us versus them mentality hinders the development of good ideas, and hence good government.

This is not a new notion. In fact when our country was founded there was a deep distrust of political parties and that is one reason why we have the electoral college. The founding fathers in trying to devise a system of electing a president believed that political parties were "mischievous if not downright evil." Here's the link on the history.

In large part, I agree. Unfortunately I see very few redeeming qualties of having political parties and lots of problems.

I understand that this is an idealistic point view and that political parties are not going away, but my main point is that it extremely unfortunate that our country has two political parties whose sole purpose ostensibly consists of two things: 1) advancing their agenda; and 2) stifling the other parties agenda. Such positions tend to make compromise difficult and good ideas get either killed by the other party who would hate see someone be credited with the idea, or they take far too long to implement.

Frankly I fail to see how such thinking is "good" for or country.

I'll admit there are a few politicians who seem able to rise above the partisan cess pool, but there are only few. The great majority are more concerned about their team staying in power than they are about helping people. When you have some Republicans calling Karl Rove the meanest son of bitch they've ever met you have to wonder what his real agenda and motivation is? This R v. D mentality is further perpetuated in the media as well with shows such as Crass Fire and Hannity & Colmes, Rush Limbaugh, Al Franken, Michael Moron. They argue for the sake of entertainment and always toe the party the line; their team is somehow always right and the other side is always wrong. It's ridiculous and it is a very sophmoric mentality that harkens back to high school. We don't want the other team to score any points now do we. That is the reality, it is pervasive in politics, the media, and society in general, and frankly I think it is pathetic.

Anyhow, I'm done, I accept the fact the Bush is the President and wish him well and hope he does a significantly better job this time around. I hope he views this as an opportunity and not as a vindication. I hope the the Republicans can reform social security so I can invest my own my money . . . if the Democrats don't kill it.
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Old 11-09-2004   #35
Join Date: Apr 2004
Posts: 254
so many opinions

dear buzz:

as the season has been falling off, i haven't been checking flows and forums so much, but now and then i've been checking back in on you guys. i admit that i was very surprised to see so much ranting and raving, not about favorite runs, sneak moves, or secret local surf spots, but POLITICS, of all things. guess that's just telling of how amped america is on this election. i think that we can all agree that the lone fact that there is SO much emotion (as seen by the various rantings) out there is good for america, and it is refreshing to see so many people so into it, and concerned about what they believe is best for america. i also believe that it is out of hand when i am reading about buzzers wanting to fight each other, over insults that remind me of grade school.

although now that i think about it, seems like there were some pretty heavy insults about the M-dorks and who said what, when, in front of whom, and who is a pro and who is a soul man and who cares? so what happend to all those good vibes i've felt, following masters down various III/IV runs as my bro's and i are earning our own wings? seems like you folks are some of the most non-elitist, friendliest, nurturing group of sports enthusiasts (relatively).

in any case, the whole reason i am writing is this. i was wondering if there was any concencus in the buzzers? i would assume that outdoorsy kayakers would be pro-kerry, but realizing that we are in colorado, and looking thru the various rants/raves, seems like there is quite a spirited debate out there. so what i am asking is for someone who is just way too bored at work to log the pro right and pro left positions. i would be interested, and i bet the ranters and ravers would also be interested in seeing the count. how many of the buzzers are pro right and pro left? realizing that this would be quite unscientific, and really with no repercussions other than satisfying curiosity. how about a count of the pro right and pro left positions from the various ranting forums?

come on - bored enough anyone???
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Old 11-09-2004   #36
pnw, Washington
Join Date: Oct 2003
Posts: 3,404
I dont see how its that easy. I classify myself as both. Some issues I am pro-left and some pro-right. I am fiscally conservative and socially liberal. I thought that having a Dem in the whitehouse would be critical for Supreme Court nominations and to quit spending so much money liberating a country that the vast majority hate us and want us out of their lives so a simple poll wouldnt cover it.
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Old 11-09-2004   #37
Join Date: Apr 2004
Posts: 254
buzz count

i agree gh - it is a complicated issue. however, from my check of the rants/raves, it was pretty easy to tell if people were pro or con BUSH. even if you are right, that buzzers couldn't be put in a right or left box very easily, that would be interesting to see. in any case, i don't really agre with you that it would be too hard to tell.

please someone - take up the cause! - what's the numbers???
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Old 11-09-2004   #38
pnw, Washington
Join Date: Oct 2003
Posts: 3,404
The pro or con Bush poll I can take. Con Bush.
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Old 11-09-2004   #39
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Wheat Ridge, Colorado
Paddling Since: 1995
Join Date: Oct 2003
Posts: 2,909
Bush is a Con (man).
Nothing in the world is more yielding and gentle than water. Yet it has no equal for conquering the resistant and tough. The flexible can overcome the unbending; the soft can overcome the hard. - Lao Tse
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Old 11-09-2004   #40
Join Date: Mar 2004
Posts: 18
More Loose ends

gh, "fiscally conservative and socially liberal", sounds like you want it both ways! But again one of those PC things to say!

Fiscally conservative, means you don't want the government to collect and spend your money, on government programs! No problem there.

Socially liberal, means you are willing to have the government collect and spend other peoples money, on government programs! A big problem there.

Being conservative, or liberal has to do with how you see the government being involved in our lives. I think the less the better. The less involved, the less of our money it will need. Social programs cost money. To say you support Kerry health care, and are willing to have the other guy pay for it, is short sighted. Eventually a program comes along, where you are the other guy.

If you can assure me that you are willing to always be the other guy, I will accept the handouts of your money!

Actually, that is not true either, when Uncle Sam gives us money, he then likes to tell us how to spend it. Another problem, so you can keep your money as far as I am concerned, I will do it my way on my dime.

Actually, that is not true either, and this is where it gets complicated. We all benefit from government programs. It becomes an issue of which programs we believe in, and which we choke on. Have you driven on a DOT highway recently, or listen to FCC controlled radio or TV, flown on an FAA regulated airline. But then there are Bridges that go no where, and airline routes that are unprofitable, and HDTV that is going to cost a bunch when our old TV no longer works.

Of course there is Dept of EDucation, necessary, probably! All of it no.
Health, the same, and then there is the Military, not so simple. Do you think we should go to the Sudan and help save those refugees. Maybe we should just send some Drs and Nurses with a bunch of food and med.

I believe conservatives should be compassionate, but not liberal. Let me decide how much of my money to donate (taxes). I might not like it, but if I make the decision, It will be easier to live with.

Thanks, Tinkerntom, aka KnesisKnosis, Life, Live it!

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