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Old 11-08-2004   #21
Livingston's Avatar
Denver, Colorado
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Since you can forsee the future with that gut feeling of yours, please let us all know who to vote for in four years.


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Old 11-08-2004   #22
Andy H.'s Avatar
Wheat Ridge, Colorado
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You won't need a psyhic to tell you who to vote for in TWO years or in four years. Just pay attention and remember that the candidate with an "R" after his or her name will likely favor giving big oil, timber, financial services, mining, pharmaceutical, and media conglomerations anything they want, regardless of whether its actually in the best interest of the American people. This is based on the notion that if you increase business' bottom line, its always a good thing regardless of whether we degrade the population's quality of life in the process. Unfortunately it doesn't work like that - think about air pollution control which may be expensive to install and operate but saves the public 2 or 3 dollars in medical costs, not to mention prevents suffering and early deaths, for every dollar spent on the controls (this estimate is from Bush's own accounting folks, not tree huggers).

The candidate with the "D" after his or her name will most likely favor keeping environmental safeguards (if there are any left by then) in place, restricting corporations' abilities to screw citizens, & favor a woman's right to choose. Other things the "D" folks generally favor are expanding educational opportunities for middle class and poor people, ensuring health care is available to more people, and making government policy making more transparent rather then secretive (think about Bush's energy policy in which oil companies got to write most of the rules). The "D" folks generally have the opinion that government can be used to improve the lives of citizens by building infrastructure such as roads, schools, and water treatment plants, and regulating the profit-by-any-means activities of corporations.

If you pay attention in the next couple of years to what's coming out of Congress and the White House that will be the biggest thing to help you make up your mind.

If you REALLY want to express your conscience make sure you vote in the primaries. Then vote for who your primary candidate supports in the main election. Those who don't do politics get done by politics.


Nothing in the world is more yielding and gentle than water. Yet it has no equal for conquering the resistant and tough. The flexible can overcome the unbending; the soft can overcome the hard. - Lao Tse
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Old 11-08-2004   #23
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Denver, Colorado
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Just a little more fuel for the fire...

Americans believe Saddam terror link
By Andrew Gumbel in Los Angeles
24 April 2004

A majority of Americans still believes Saddam Hussein was in cahoots with al-Qa'ida and that Iraq either had weapons of mass destruction or a programme for developing them, according to a new opinion poll.

The poll, conducted by the University of Maryland, showedmost respondents were unaware of the testimony of David Kay, the administration's chief weapons inspector, that he had found no weapons, or that of Richard Clarke, the former counter-terrorism tsar whose book Against All Enemies has been the talk of Washington.

A staggering 82 per cent of respondents believed most experts supported the notion that Iraq was providing \"substantial support\" to al-Qa'ida - a contention that President Bush has been forced to disavow. Almost 60 per cent were unaware that world opinion was against the war in Iraq, with 21 per cent saying the world was behind the US-led invasion and 38 per cent saying views were \"evenly divided\".

The poll also showed a correlation between people's ignorance and their political affiliation. Among those who believed WMD had been found in Iraq, 72 per cent said they would vote to re-elect Mr Bush in November and 23 per cent said they supported his Democratic challenger, John Kerry. Among those who knew that no WMD had been found,74 per cent supported Mr Kerry and 23 per cent backed the President

FYI, a similar poll I saw on PBS said 62% belived Sadam had link to Al Quida and 41% that he had part in the 9-11 attacks (from an October poll).

"If a nation expects to be ignorant and free in a state of civilization, it expects what never was and never will be." --Thomas Jefferson to Charles Yancey, 1816. ME 14:384

"Convinced that the people are the only safe depositories of their own liberty, and that they are not safe unless enlightened to a certain degree, I have looked on our present state of liberty as a short-lived possession unless the mass of the people could be informed to a certain degree." --Thomas Jefferson to Littleton Waller Tazewell, 1805.

"No nation is permitted to live in ignorance with impunity." --Thomas Jefferson: Virginia Board of Visitors Minutes, 1821. ME 19:408

"Light and liberty go together." --Thomas Jefferson to Tench Coxe, 1795.


Question, if ignorance is good for the republican party, how many kids can we expect to be left behind?

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Old 11-08-2004   #24
Join Date: Dec 2003
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Good posts, KK.

I'm afraid that you (we) are speaking into a liberal echo chamber, though. Chocked full of brilliant, tolerant, and open-minded individuals!-)

Just taking my own jab, thanks.

There does seem to be alot of confusion on the Dem side regarding their recent losses. After three straight, I would think that the Dem party would be trying to come around to America's point of view, but haven't seen it yet. I keep reading these articles about why the dems lose. They blame gay marraige, evangelicals, and all manners of people, but don't even mention terrorism. How can you talk about this election and not even give a passing nod to terrorism. I laughed at this in some article posted on another thread, and now today see that a nation wide poll showed terrorism as the driving force at the polls. Dems have lost a serious toe hold with the American public, and without some careful insight will lose all hope in coming elections.

Here is what will likely go on in '08: Gulianni vs Clinton II. If this goes down, watch for a serious blow-out that even the liberal media won't be able to make out as a close one.

I think that Gephart could have beat Bush, but he wasn't pretty enough. And we know how those intelligent states like the pretty ones. Ha ha. Mobilize the base, right? As for who voted for whom, check out this site, it shows the election county by county:
For fun, look at my home state, MT. If you can figure out who resides in the blue counties, you can see who tends, in MT, to vote for Dems--no matter who they put up for office. I propose to you all that if MT was one big city (our entire population isn't even that of a big city), then our different counties would represent different suburbs. Guess what suburbs vote mostly for Bush and which for Kerry. Who did Cherry hills vote for? How about Aurora? Maybe we can get a volunteer to go door to door with some IQ tests, and find out for certain who's is biggest!

Take comfort, KK. As Churchill (also a controversial leader in a time of war, and judged fondly by history) said: "If a man of 20 is not a liberal, he has no heart. If a man of 40 is not a conservative, he has no brain."

Your resident ignorant redneck mullet-toting hick dumb ass,

ps my iq aint that big, either.

pps it wasn't by accident that our founding fathers set up the electoral collage--they had the foresight to know that cities would control the vote over rural areas, and tried to formulate a system that would equal this out.
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Old 11-08-2004   #25
Carbondale, Colorado
Paddling Since: 94
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"Moral Majority"

A point by point rebuttal with no facts and just as much partisan lean? I want the time it took to read that back. Sounds like you're old enough to know better that to come back with that drivel.

And kenosis... Anybody paying attention here? KK just admit you voted for little george for "moral" reasons and be done with it.

And what's your problem with JFK? Little chip on your shoulder? And no, I don't have any other real admiration for JFK besides the women he poked. Go and make sure the "Boycott Jane Fonda" sticker is straight on the SUV.

...And I am very involved at my church.
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Old 11-08-2004   #26
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Denver, Colorado
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Didn't mention terrorism? Read the post directly above yours. Yes, terrorism was a big issue in this election and the fact that it was misunderstood by the majority of the population is absurd to me. If people are really that concerned, why don't they learn about it. I don't think the reason we were attacked in a suicide bombing was because they "are jealous of our freedom."
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Old 11-08-2004   #27
Join Date: Sep 2004
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Your right, they didn't do it because they were jealous of our freedom, they did it because freedom is infectious and they don't want their little ilk infected with something that would render them useless.
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Old 11-08-2004   #28
BV, Colorado
Join Date: Jun 2004
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we were attacked because of our reckless foreign policy. when we create the iran contra -affairs, and one year support sadam and the next invade, and only support the Israelis, and shot first and ask questions later, and all other insistences of inconsistent foreign policy, we tend to make MANY, MANY enemies along the way.

Democrats, Independents, Moderates, are seeking a better solution. We are not ignoring, and we are afraid (though it does not consume us) of terorisom. We believe that you must go to the source of the problem, not treat the symptoms. That is why a fundamental change in foreign policy must be made. Killing people only temporally saciates our need for revenge while giving cause to those who are looking for it.

Are you aware of how JFK handled the Cuban missile crisis? That is an excellent example of someone making every effort to avoid war.

Interesting concept, MAKE EVERY EFFORT TO AVOID WAR!!!
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Old 11-08-2004   #29
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Partisan politics and those who peddle parties over ideas are killing this country. There are good ideas on both sides of the aisle unfortunately too many people would rather cheer their team, than an idea.

Regarding any notion that majority won; therefore it follows they must be right. That line of thinking is dangerous.

Peope would do well to remember all the stupid shit that has happened in this country b/c "the majority" (at the time) thought it was a good idea. Segregation and racism is a prime example. I hate to think what society would look like today if some "activists judges" did not step in and say hey Mr. and Mrs. Majority I don't give a rat's ass what you think: This is wrong, fix it.

For our countries sake I sincerely hope Bush and "the majority" are right. I hope invading Iraq was the right call. I hope running up huge deficits and cutting taxes is a smart policy.

My gut tells me they are wrong, but I hope it is me that turns out to be wrong.
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Old 11-08-2004   #30
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IMO, matobs is absolutely correct.

I doubt that most people agree completely with either party platforms, yet it appears that most of the folks posting stand behind whatever their 'team' does. That's too bad


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