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Old 10-14-2010   #71
lhowemt's Avatar
at my house, Montana
Paddling Since: 2020
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Climbermale - Are you selling used cars, or just paid to put out such a poorly written slash on Josh, and everyone else who DARES to voice their opinion? What's the deal with people almost flagellating themselves over how great Tom and Cascade is? It's creepy. This is not about Tom, and his defenders are weak in repeatedly going back to that.

The issue at hand is modifying the river channel, one that is protected from such activities. It will be a sad day if one (even if they are so awesome, so great, whatever he could be god for all I care) person (who cares if it is an outfitter or private party) can hype up enough fear and anger to have the governing bodies ignore their own regulations such as river protection. Unfortunately they do it often enough and we the public MUST voice our difference. You see CM, that's how it works. TL is in a position of power, he had the permit once and likely could easily get it again if no one spoke up. Unfortunately people probably thought this sort of this was no longer possible, once the river achieved state protection, but unfortunately it is all too common.

As Mike says, this "save us from ourselves" is BS in my opinion. Good friends have taught me to always watch out for those claiming to help me from myself, and actually it's best to avoid them. Either they are misguided (it's best to let people take care of themselves, and experience both success and failure) or trying to tap into some unrequested sense of obligation. It's kind of like asking someone to pay for a mortgage that they did not request.

It's pretty weak to play the victim card that he's having cheap shots thrown at him. When you step out into the limelight by attempting to do something such as this, you better be able to take the boo's with the applause. Not everyone gets applause.

There are likely people out there that sincerely feel this rock is a risk. So far all I've heard are people that sound like sandbaggers. It reminds me of when our neighborhood was fighting some developments, and the developer tries to pack the room with friends and cronies that "support" their project.

Actually, your post CM, sounds like you need a Saturn, or love your Saturn, or love the guy that sells them.

I am a river, babe - I've got plenty of time, I don't know where I'm going, I'm just following the lines..... - "We are water" by Shaye
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Old 10-14-2010   #72
Matt J's Avatar
Leadvillian, Colorado
Join Date: May 2005
Posts: 381
I'm coming to my personal threshold on vile spew over this issue.

Can someone summarize what took place at the meeting for those of us unable to attend?

Perhaps even a version that's reasonably unbiased?

Regardless of your feelings about the rock a few of you that've engaged this topic must admit that the mud slinging has gone a bit far. The "save the rock" crowd has played the victim role pretty well despite the fact that no one at Cascade ever intended to change one damn thing about that rock w/out community input. I know conspiracy theories are a lot more exciting, but it's merely not the case in this situation.

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Old 10-14-2010   #73
Matt J's Avatar
Leadvillian, Colorado
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BTW - Ms. Howe may I ask where you were in 2001 when the river was "naturally" dammed by the flood. I would have liked to see you up there on your high horse defending the natural course of the river to the people upstream that couldn't access the road. Perhaps the ACoE was violating the same "regulations" then as now?

For all the sickbirds that are proud that they always can make the move in front of the rock, I'm sure the boating was really bad ass when the river turned into a lake.
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Old 10-14-2010   #74
lhowemt's Avatar
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Originally Posted by Matt J View Post
I'm coming to my personal threshold on vile spew over this issue.
You can change your homepage anytime you want, so it doesn't bring you to this thread. Or just don't click on it if you don't like the conversations.

2001? Let me check my calendar. Oh yeah, I got married, that's about all I remember from that year because getting married was so awesome! And I don't remember things all that well anymore. Getting old is brutal.

Now you bring the road into question. Good, expand the discussion even further into more unrelated issues. The protection on the river excludes a few things such as road repair. The issue is changing a riverbed for reasons other than those allowed by the state protected status.

Discussions are good, the Buzz has had more of it than even the Idaho WW group, which is pretty weird.

From what I heard, people that oppose moving the rock weren't too happy with the meeting. But since I wasn't there, I won't pass on second hand information. Find someone to talk to directly I guess. Unbiased? Find god.
I am a river, babe - I've got plenty of time, I don't know where I'm going, I'm just following the lines..... - "We are water" by Shaye
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Old 10-14-2010   #75
Matt J's Avatar
Leadvillian, Colorado
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I bring the road into discussion because the corps drove front end loaders into the river bed and placed the rocks where they are after the flood. Considering the fact that the rock in question sits exactly where it does because it was placed there by the corps my comment is exactly on topic.

That's already been mentioned in this thread but I wouldn't have expected that you noticed. You probably don't read the post seeing as you feel that no one on here really knows anything about boating.

The reason there's more discussion here than the WW Idaho group is because that group is hosted by Yahoo! groups which is a cumbersome and inefficient message board. This is a lot easier and more user friendly.

I asked for reasonably unbiased. Knowing your personal bias and presenting information in a neutral manner despite your bias is a higher level thinking skill. Perhaps something foreign to you?

I was fairly neutral on this topic until reading all the dumbass responses on here to "save the gnarl." Sounds like good news that such faction was disgruntled after the meeting.
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Old 10-14-2010   #76
Grand Junction, Colorado
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Jesus Christ!! It's a fucking rock that was placed by the corp (very unnaturally)! Get over it you fucking granola crunching weirdos.
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Old 10-14-2010   #77
Grants Pass, Oregon
Paddling Since: 1993
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I really don't recall Josh saying much of anything negative about the Longs. I believe his intent was to spread the word about a permit that had been issued to "Remove a Rock" from Staircase. Not many in the boating community new that this permit had been issued nor did we know that anyone was even thinking about moving or removing this rock. If you look at this thread most of the negative posts about the guides and such were posted by people from Colorado, not people from Idaho. I really don't know what the intentions of Mr Long were with regards to an open forum from the community, all I know is that he wasn't out there spreading the word. Does this mean that he wouldn't have? Well the fact is is that he didn't have to because Josh and others spread the word for him.

It all comes down to differing opinions where both sides think they are right and are doing what is best for the river and boaters. I happen to be on the side of not removing the rock but am open to the idea of filling in the sieve or rotating the rock to make less dangerous. I also know what it is like to lose someone on the river. I was with Josh's group on the Murtaugh that day. Probably the most helpless I've ever felt was when that situation was transpiring. Many of us have felt loss on the river and aren't of the mindset that I can't happen to us nor our friends. We have seen it happen first hand.

Sorry, got a little sidetracked....my intent in this post was to support Josh after someone earlier attacked his character and intentions. Josh's wanted his voice heard in the matter and thanks to him and others everyone who cared enough to show up at the meeting got to voice their opinion. Thanks Josh.
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Old 10-15-2010   #78
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Denver, Colorado
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In the beginning of this post Ihowemt said “Come on all you Coloradoans we need help! But, I feel some people on this topic took it way to far. People called the company, clogged emails and most likely harassed the staff. “If you like to boat in Idaho, let your voice be heard”. That is GREAT! But come on Rich said “I sent Cascade Raft an email suggesting they hire better guides. Let’s flood them with emails and calls”. We are all a better boating community then this. I very much like to boat in Idaho as well as other places in the Colorado. But if there is a danger where two or more people have died in the same location I feel the area should be looked at closer. It’s wrong to say it will never happen again. I’m not one to say that one rock in Bailey gets me every time so take it out. Or even Blast the first fall on Four Falls to make it safer. I am only saying there needs to be more education at locations where more the two deaths have occurred with in one rapid, hell with in 10 foot of eachother. I don’t think the answer is placing a small sign on the river side that one misses every time they pass by. The sign on Frog Rock in Colorado is so small it’s took me three times down to find it. The rapid is very easy class III but has class V consequences. I feel that by doing nothing we are wrong as a community. To say that nothing will happen again at this area is wrong. To harass a family for trying to make a difference and bring a serious concern to light is wrong. For Dean Fairburn to die in a man made rapid is wrong. So what is the answer to the problem? As a concerned boater I just don’t want to have another Frog Rock where another death will occur. But, we say there is not a problem. What are your comments on Tren Longs statement? “It seems strange to me that we all support the alteration of the steam bed to make water parks, and in some cases even compete diversion of a river, but an effort to remove a rock that has is a clear unnatural hazard is unthinkable. Kelly’s Whitewater park runs on the NF of the Payette, they dramatically altered the river, and have plans to alter the river again, but there is no condemnation or outpouring of sentiment. So do we as the boating community support altering the stream bed only when it improves our play waves and not when it can save lives”?
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Old 10-15-2010   #79
Join Date: Feb 2006
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Final Solution:




It is absolutely right that this is no different than a whitewater park. They need to make Staircase an even sweeter rapid, a full on Class IV that is safe. Do it up really subtle, but really killer like a WW Park. Everyone Wins.
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Old 10-15-2010   #80
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Cascade, Idaho
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CM, please read back upthread to an earlier post of mine about comparing work done to build KWP and what we're talking about on the South Fork. I don't know what existed before most other whitewater parks were built, but to throw Kelly's Whitewater Park up as a straw man, as a precedence to altering a river so that it becomes okay to alter Staircase, is ludicrous and only discredits the "let's move the rock" argument. Don't forget, the list of permits (Corps of Engineers, Idaho DOE, Idaho Department of Water Resources, Idaho Department of Lands, Valley County Commission, etc.) needed was long and opportunities for the public to provide comment were numerous before in-the-river work began on KWP. There was no such process here. IDWR wrongly issued the permit, and the work could have gone ahead without any public comment or process. (And, to clarify again, it was the Idaho Whitewater Association that set up Monday's public meeting and invited Tom Long to present his argument for moving Dean's Rock, and not the other way around.) Prior to KWP, there was little other than a mostly sandy river bottom on that stretch of mostly flatwater. The only "rapid" had mostly to do with an eroding and dangerous old concrete diversion dam, complete with rebar sticking out of it, that was associated with the old lumber mill that once stood near where the welcome center for KWP now stands. And the planned work for KWP this fall have to do with repairing damage that resulted from the epic June flows we had out of Cascade Dam and also to adjust the angles of some of the features to help further mitigate on-going erosion problems that have plagued that stretch of river. Have you been to KWP? Again, where there was once nothing for a whitewater boater, there are now five very nice play features. KWP's construction should not be part of the discussion. And we need to focus on the issue. Yes, the Long family and CRC are terrific stewards of the river system. Yes, they're concerned about safety and their actions over the years clearly demonstrate that. Yes, the Longs and CRC are great people, great guides and they run a great operation. Does that mean we just nod and go along with their proposal without asking questions? Certainly not.

Mike Stewart

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