Thread Tools Display Modes
Old 11-22-2005   #41
Tiggy's Avatar
Steamboat Springs, CO
Paddling Since: 1995
Join Date: May 2004
Posts: 213
yess!! It should be changed so you guys are teaching C-Boating!!

Tiggy is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 11-22-2005   #42
Gary E's Avatar
Jackson, Wyoming
Paddling Since: 94
Join Date: Oct 2003
Posts: 739
Send a message via Yahoo to Gary E
Helio, thanks for sharing, great post! I think you are on your way to becoming a stellar paddler. I agree with all your points and it is great to see the attitude you have towards such a great sport. Good luck in the future and don't forget paddle where you can breathe.

Gary E is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 11-22-2005   #43
pnw, Washington
Join Date: Oct 2003
Posts: 3,404
Helio, you have had a great year but the one thing I would add is that I think the use of the WW park helped you and Jeremiah move up quite quickly this year. The addition of the Pueblo whitewater park seemed to help many paddlers progress this year. We have used that area as a training tool this year and I think it has been very successful and I thank the people of Pueblo that pushed this project.
gh is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 11-22-2005   #44
Join Date: Nov 2003
Posts: 1,302
JMack, and anyone else.

My point, like Gary said, is that it is all relative to each paddler. I assume that I am only at risk if I miss a line, just as a class III paddler is only at risk if they miss a line. Consequences are a mute point if you clean a rapid.

That being said I do respect a paddler that doesn't want to risk it as much as another. Some paddlers will only run something if they will clean it 24/25 times, or 49/50 times, and that automatically means they will probably be running easier whitewater. That is part of the beauty of kayaking, making personal choices about how much risk you wish to take.

Assuming you miss a line, I don't think its completely correct to assume that class V offers larger consequences than class III. In other sports this is correct. Take snowboarding in a terrain park. Every rider knows that coming up short on a jump will hurt less on a 10' gap as opposed to a 50' gap, and injuries will likely result from the larger. However, since kayaking is performed on such forgiving terrain (water) the result of a missed line is often the same, you swim something scary, and miraculously make it through just fine. Whitewater injuries are rare because there is no middle ground, you are either unhurt (small cuts and bruises) or you are dead.

In years and years of paddling I have yet to be able to judge which missed line will kill you and which one won't. I've heard of people falling off the right side of Zute Chute (40 footer in Inner Crystal Gorge, solid class V) and coming out just fine even though it looks like death. I've also heard of people dieing on class IV rapids, that boaters routinely run (one last year in this state). Therefore I find it tough to believe that a missed line on Class V will more likely mean you will die (remember, we usually don't get hurt) as opposed to a missed line on class III.

To contradict myself, when injuries do happen they are more likely to happen on class V. But honestly, how often do you really get hurt by a river feature. (Shoulder dislocation means your body got teaked, not that you hit something. Same with tendonitis, etc.) In 13 years of paddling and numerous missed lines and swims, I have only had two injuries that stopped me from paddling for a set amount of time. And only one of those (jacked ribs) resulted from a missed line. The other (broken back) was on a line that I went for and had run cleanly before. Neither involved a swim.

JMack, don't take this personally (I can be a little blunt). Just trying to explain my point of view a little better. We definetly agree on a lot of things. I think that I view things a little differently than most though, when it comes to evaluating risk.

Gary, I'd be interested in your take on what I just said, since you have much more experience than I do in the class V realm. And anyone elses...

Sorry, this should be a seperate thread, but it started under this one...

Awesome posts! And yes Marko, friends don't let friends wear tight neoprene! haha
Kyle McCutchen
Cutch is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 11-22-2005   #45
Denver, Colorado
Paddling Since: 1999
Join Date: Feb 2004
Posts: 855
i move my post to a new thread in respect for this thread.

helio- garye is right, you are on the road to becoming a stellar paddler. Keep learning! Mike Brown, and Pikes Peak have some great programs.

gh- you are right on about play parks helping a paddlers skills. The more you playboat the more you roll. the more you roll the better it gets. playboating builds paddle dexterity and your sense of awareness. This awareness is created by flipping upside down in so many different ways, and after doing it for awhile you will start to get a sense of where you are and what paddle blade you need to use to hip snap. And what a better place to do this-a safe nearly controlled play park.

marko is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 11-22-2005   #46
Join Date: Jun 2004
Posts: 93
Regarding Mark's comment about PPWC, in my opinion, what Pikes Peak Whitewater Club has done very well is reduce the barriers to entry into the sport, by providing pool sessions in the winter to help beginners come out and learn basic strokes and how to roll. We follow that up with structured beginner trips to build on the basic skills and apply them to the river. and last year for the first time, our ACA certified instructors ran courses for club members by enrollment to further aid new paddlers to learn and build on the basics.

Consider the importance of the support network as well, that helps beginners become self-sufficient with finding paddling partners once they have some of the basics down. With all the sponsored activities we have for beginners it helps them network with others at their level to put trips together on their own. I think the new Colorado Kayakers group for new paddlers did some nice work in this area last season as well.

Next season, PPWC will build on what they've done well in the past and add some activities to help class 3 paddlers gain additional skills to move competently into more challenging water, get more capable overall, and just enjoy paddling more. Check out our pro clinics, for one example of how we are approaching this. These clinics can help intermediate and advanced paddlers get a picture of what good fundamentals can open up for them and as such may stimulate some longer-term boaters to consider the value of more advanced lessons.

These are some examples of the role a club can play to attract and retain people in the sport. That doesn't mean that all clubs will play that role, but PPWC, in my opinion has the leadership and committment of a core group of members to make this type of contribution.

From my perspective, if we attract more people to the sport we all benefit, the manufacturers can make more innovative products, the dealers and schools have a larger client base enabling them the opportunity to keep prices reasonable, and the organizations that support River issues important to all of us, such as AW, ACA and American Rivers have a stronger membership base.

Mike B is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 11-22-2005   #47
Join Date: Jan 2005
Posts: 305
I am amazed at the responce this thread is getting.... Thanks everyone!

A couple of point that I feel need adressed as to the way Boaters think VS non boaters

There are few on river venues that a non boater no matter what age they are can be exposed to whitewater kayaking. Remember I am talking from the non boaters standpoint that I talked to over the summer.

One is slalom, where people can see boaters using skills and tenique to move thru whitewater in a somewhat non threating manner, think the Golden Slalom series.
The next is a Rodeo, Where non boaters might/do think that looks hard, traped in a hole/rapid flipping over and over. To most non boaters that is their biggest fear stuck in a boat getting flipped, I heard this many times from the people watching the playboaters at Golden.
Another is somewhere like Gorefest or Pine Creek race, what I would refer as a video venue due to the size of the water and the possiable carnage factor, not a good place to get a non boater convinced that boating might be for them.

About Kayaking not growing due to no resorts, That was brought up at the WW symposium in Glenwood and I think that is not a valid point. First kayaking doesn't lend it's self to a resort setting like skiing does unless its from a playboat stand point.
But it can be looked at like this, Colorado does have 3-4 kayaking resorts already in place. Durango, Buena Vista/Salida and Glenwood Springs, you can include Golden in this too.
The Industry just needs to realize this and market it this way. Rivers already in place and hotels in place resturants there too, even camping, sounds like a resort to me. And it seems to be working for the Rafting company's.

About Snowboarding growing due to the Mtn Dew/X games mind set that is just not true, the Ski resorts used to not allow snowboarders and they were seeing a decline in dollar/numbers that were going to resorts that allowed boarding, dad and mom skiied but the kids snowboarded so that was a no brainer for the resorts. Then when the Olympics turned up their nose at Snowboarding and Skateboarding the X Games were born.

When I use the Mountain Dew crew reference, you know the jackasses from the commercials, it’s all those guy’s that give crap to the boaters that don’t run the hardcore like they do, or think they do. You know, you’ve seen the posts aimed at the people posting about running Grizzly and Decker’s and such. It's kind of like the weekend Harley rides throwin vibe to jap bike riders.

It does seem to me that even though kayaking has been around forever the industry/business of kayaking is in those awkward preteen years. I watched the same thing happen to the SCUBA industry back in the late 70's early 80's, during the change from the macho diver sport it was to the family lifestyle it is today.
By that I mean what you were talking about regarding "who are the demographics of kayaking"

After talking with several employees from different stores the biggest change they told me they have seen in the last few years other than boat design has been in the number of women getting involved in kayaking. And not doing so due to a boyfriend/husband but for themselves. That change seems to always signal a new era for any activity, with women’s involvement then comes family and so on.
As far as the Front Range Kayaker consumers they tend to be from all across the board from what I noticed during the pool sessions this past winter, paddling at Golden all season and from the customers I see coming thru the door. They span from, the broke collage kid looking for used gear at a deal price to get into the sport, the single guy/girl with some disposable income but not a lot, to the DR. and his wife looking to enjoy an activity during the off ski season and everyone in between.
One of the things that the kayak Industry needs to learn from demographics is that for the business to grow EVERYONE that comes thru the door needs to succeed at learning how to roll and have a good time on the river.
It is not the customer that is coming in the door that will make the kayaking business grow it is getting all the ones in that don’t. And for that to happen the image of kayaking needs to change from, it’s hard to learn and dangerous, to, its fun to learn and relatively safe if you boat at your comfort level.

I have seen the guide lines that the ACA uses for teaching beginners to paddle and that is part of what made me start thinking about how kayaking is taught, that and talking to several Instructors about their methodology. It seems to me that the ACA has a set list of skills to learn but no real method about how to approach teaching them.
After spending 20+ years as a SCUBA Inst. teaching Instructors and working with the students that everyone including themselves had given up on I am wondering why kayaking is taught the way it is.
“Read that” blind to learn a breath hold muscle memory skill, and an out and back paddle skill drill.
Wouldn’t the student be better served by having to paddle around some buoys in the lake/pool sessions that simulate the rocks they will be maneuvering around in their river classes, and using learning aids to work on developing the muscle memory and to help stop the diving paddle problem like I was having.

Thanks again everyone for helping me with this project.
Don't do anything, just stand there.
rasdoggy is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 11-22-2005   #48
Metro Area, Colorado
Join Date: May 2005
Posts: 214
This past summer was my first season boating. I started with some pool sessions last winter, got my flat water roll down pat, then headed out to moving water. Needless to say, I got worked for most of April and May. The place that helped me the most was Union Chutes. I REALLY learned how to roll, ferry, and brace by messing around in the holes and currents. After spending multiple weeks getting worked in the play holes, I was able to take my newfound abilities (and confidence) out to the rivers. I highly recommend every new student to spend ample time in play parks before they decide to venutre out to bigger water. It is forgiving enough that a possible swim isn't intimidating, but has features that a new boater can learn the basics. Not to mention, hopping into a man-made surf hole is a whole lot of fun when every other aspect of boating was either difficult or painful.
cecil is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 11-22-2005   #49
Gary E's Avatar
Jackson, Wyoming
Paddling Since: 94
Join Date: Oct 2003
Posts: 739
Send a message via Yahoo to Gary E
Kyle, I think you're dead on. Consequences, are consequences. The result can be the same in a missed class 3 line to a missed class 5 line. You figure most drownings are due to compression drownings (swimming in a rapid) where, as most of you know you are under water 75% of the time while swimming.

Like I said in a earlier post, when you are in the water you are never truely safe, that is why I get out and yard sale when I decide to pull. People have this theory that class 5 is so much more dangerous then class 3. I believe as Kyle, that paddling is realitive to the paddler, class 3 is dangerous and scary to a person that is coming up through the ranks, and yes more people die at this level than any other, Why? They have'nt been trained or experienced what nature has to offer. The first time I swam in the liquid frieght train, I came out and was like holy shit!

So now you go to the class 5 realm where training, judgement and decision making is critical and you have experienced people, making educated decisions based on experience and their ability. People who know how to cut out the variables they can control, like running, walking, can I do the moves this rapid will demand? Sure class 5 swims are dangerous, yet how many fat, smoking out of shape people do you see in that realm? You look at most of the class 5 and the main danger is swimming until you come to cutting edge class 5. Class 5 is more intense than 3, but for the prepared mind it feels the same as an up and comer swimming a 3, not to mention the up and comer is in the water alot longer than I am.

It doesn't matter what class you boat, only that you are out there.

If you never want class 5, do you not enjoy kayaking as much as someone who does, of course not. We all love to be out on our programs in nature, as nature is one of the things that is so much bigger than you. It makes you feel so small and in awe of what you're doing and seeing. Than it gives you the reassurance of how lucky you are to experience life and moments on the water. Not to mention the people you share these moments in time with, all quality.

The best way I feel to enjoy this sport is to learn to roll, from there everything else will come easy. You are comfortable and are able to work on many more things. Also, learn the sweep roll and throw the c to c in the river as it sucks. Ras said people are afraid to hit their head, ect. If you cannot roll, it will be more than your head hitting rocks, not to mention, you now arrive in a unknown environment with dangers riding the liquid frieght train.

Gary E is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 11-22-2005   #50
Durango, Colorado
Paddling Since: 1996
Join Date: Jun 2004
Posts: 808

I guess we'll just have to agree to disagree a bit. You can definitely get a foot entrapment in class III and drown, I just think its way less likely than from a missed line in class V. You also said :

"In years and years of paddling I have yet to be able to judge which missed line will kill you and which one won't."

I couldn't agree more. Alot of times its amazing what bad lines people get away with, but then one that looks not so bad ends up tragically.

you may be right that kayaking has not been marketed as well as it could be but I'm not sure I really want it to be marketed better. I like that I am rarely wait in a crowded eddy and that I see boaters I know all the time. I'm not trying to be elitist here, I just like it how it is. I'm all for kayaking resorts so long as they don't cost more than free camping.

Holy crap, I can't believe its only November. I can't wait for spring.

jmack is offline   Reply With Quote


Thread Tools
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Trackbacks are Off
Pingbacks are Off
Refbacks are Off

Similar Threads
Topic Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
You got change for that? holley The Eddy 0 10-18-2006 08:30 PM
Change of pace... Loaner Whitewater Kayaking 6 06-30-2006 05:46 PM
Sudden OBJ gauge change dooleyoc-1 Whitewater Kayaking 6 06-29-2006 01:35 PM

» Classified Ads
Jackson Superstar

posted by Gary Rempe

Beautiful boat with awesome performance. Very lightly used...

AT kayak paddle

posted by marilyn anderson

AT kayak paddle approx 191cm

Jackson Side Kick...

posted by Rendezvous River Sports

Powered by vBadvanced CMPS v3.2.3

Our Communities

Our communities encompass many different hobbies and interests, but each one is built on friendly, intelligent membership.

» More about our Communities

Automotive Communities

Our Automotive communities encompass many different makes and models. From U.S. domestics to European Saloons.

» More about our Automotive Communities

Marine Communities

Our Marine websites focus on Cruising and Sailing Vessels, including forums and the largest cruising Wiki project on the web today.

» More about our Marine Communities

Copyright 2002-2012 Social Knowledge, LLC All Rights Reserved.

All times are GMT -6. The time now is 07:38 PM.

Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.8 Beta 1
Copyright ©2000 - 2016, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.