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Old 07-22-2010   #31
ActionJackson's Avatar
Edge o' the Dust Bowl, Oklahoma
Paddling Since: 1982
Join Date: Apr 2005
Posts: 195
Originally Posted by Solid View Post
1. Make every class III run challenging for you. Instead of finding the green water, take the meat line and make easy moves much more difficult. (Of course where there aren't significant hazards.)
Old boating adage: run the V's like III's, and the III's like V's.

Flaco, great post and rating method! I'm gonna' save that and study on it some more.

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Old 07-22-2010   #32
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The Bitterroot, Montana
Join Date: Mar 2010
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Originally Posted by KUpolo View Post
This question seems to me like asking which bullet is going to do the least damage if I get shot with it?
that is easy to answer though. THE SMALLEST CALLIBER

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Old 07-23-2010   #33
Charleston, West Virginia
Join Date: May 2010
Posts: 76
Well, since a lot of you aren't too fond of the "safe" aspect, how about listing some of the most unreasonably dangerous rivers/rapids? This is merely all for curiosities sake, so i don't think there is need for arguments. I'll start:
Deckers Creek
Lower Meadow
Middle Meadow
Section 4 Chattooga
Russel Fork (namely Fist)
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Old 07-23-2010   #34
oh yeah
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Old 07-23-2010   #35
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Golden, Colorado
Paddling Since: 1984
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Originally Posted by ActionJackson View Post
Old boating adage: run the V's like III's, and the III's like V's.

Flaco, great post and rating method! I'm gonna' save that and study on it some more.

I meant to also include that there may be some boaters that put their on limits on certain equal but different combos. Meaning, you make your own caveats to the scale; such as "I feel comfortable on a 5 (C3+R3+S1), but not on a 5 (C3+R1+S3)"....even though it's the same level on the scale. Or 'I'll always walk a C3'.

This concept is certainly nothing new - we all do these calculations & gut checks while scouting rapids.
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Old 07-23-2010   #36
Paddling Since: 96
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Interesting thread. I really like; "Old boating adage: run the V's like III's, and the III's like V's."

Anyway as I've gotten older I fear flush drowning in big pushy water more than low volume technical stuff. I'd rather run my class "5" home creek in Maine than my former home river the class 3/4 big water Kennebec Gorge. If yer ever in Maine try to catch Sandy Stream. 3+ miles of Cali type smooth granite ledge pool drop. Many, many 4' to 15' drops, most with pools to pick up the pieces if need be, some slides and a couple solid class 5 drops. I usually call it vertical class 4. You can scout everything and there's an old logging road following most of it. It also goes at really low water and has a swamp in its headwaters so it holds really well. Dang, can't wait to paddle it again...
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Old 07-23-2010   #37
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Lakewood, Colorado
Paddling Since: 1989
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Flaco: Sweet scale.
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Old 07-23-2010   #38
thornton, Colorado
Paddling Since: 1969
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" flaco scale "

" Excellent "
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Old 07-23-2010   #39
Shit Creek, Colorado
Paddling Since: 2005
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Perfect process in my opinion (not that it is worth more than spit in a can). The list for CO is what I planned for this year (Black Rock, Bailey, Gore). 4 yrs ago when I started boating, my buddy taught me about eddy hoppin' and ferrying and it has been invaluable in the last 2 years as I have been boating harder stuff.
See you on the river.
Speak of Peace, (but carry a big gun)
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Old 07-23-2010   #40
Denver, Colorado
Paddling Since: 2004
Join Date: Apr 2004
Posts: 3,097
Dude, that looks like a 47.29 on the flaco scale... I'm walking! Good stuff.

The flaco scale is similar to Corran Addison's river rating scale. Corran gave a run three separate ratings 1) difficulty , 2) danger and 3) remoteness in an effort to better quantify risk.

addison's scale

I think safe is a misnomer here, what you are talking about is how much risk is there. In my mind, rapids of similar technical difficulty vary in risk depending on the danger and remoteness as corran noted. I typically walk drops I know I can run if there is singificant danger or if its remote or both.

So a class "X" river that is the lower risk is typically roadside, close to hospitals and relatively free of wood, sieves and pin spots. A class "X" river that is high risk would be away from the road, far from help and have lots of hazards like sieves, wood, or pin spots.

Also, I think sieves, strainers, and pin spots are more likely to be fatal hazards than holes (big water being the exception). Many holes will release a swimmer, or you can be roped out. Sieves and entrapments are a totally different story. A good example would be rigor mortis on clear creek. Its a technical rapid that ends in a big hole with a fine line around it. If the hole was replaced with a strainer or with a sieve with the same fine line around it, I bet hardly anyone would run if. As is, it gets run all the time because the consequences are typically an ego busting swim and potentially lost gear.

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