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Old 02-02-2012   #11
Skillkilla's Avatar
Arvada, Colorado
Paddling Since: 2009
Join Date: Mar 2011
Posts: 296
yeah dane jacksons great. still in one spot w nice deep water. see any hazards ? rocks? logs? steep drop offs? see him steering round anything ? any eddys or changes in direction ? didnt think so. hard to get trapped in the middle of a lake. seen em both creek as well as met em both, they built a boat just for creeking. the villian. paintballer, a planed hull is flat- its a little more stable but its sharper because of it. thatll make it turn easier, but you can also get caught and get flipped easier. displacement is rounded , the water wont catch you and flip you. it rolls over quicker- the good way and bad way. my nomad is displacement- i go right thru everything w out worry, it rolls like a dream. but its a tank, gotta watch the river closely because it takes a little more time to make adjustments.

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Old 02-02-2012   #12
Shelby, North Carolina
Paddling Since: 2012
Join Date: Aug 2011
Posts: 59
Originally Posted by tango View Post
you're going to get spanked
Please explain.....

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Old 02-02-2012   #13
Paddling Since: 96
Join Date: Feb 2009
Posts: 1,373
Dane is prolly not a good reference point when talking to a noob. He could paddle a playboat down many a class 5 creek. But Skillkilla, did you really just ask if we saw any change of direction in that vid?

Its always gonna be the boater and not the boat. That being said, there are better tools for different jobs. "GSPaintballer", good on you for researching and asking questions but you can't schedule your boating development no matter how good a jock you are or have been. Boating ain't like anything else you've ever done. And if you need it, it will most likely kick your ass and teach you humility. Playboat, river runner or creeker, it doesn't matter. Get in one, pay attention, let the rio teach you. Paddle with good people who will take the time to bring you up right. I paddle a Nomad exclusively, cuz it is the best tool for what I want to do. I watch great young paddlers paddle playboats on rivers almost in flood cuz its the best tool for what they want, down river play. You can't get too much experience. And at this point you don't know what you don't know and you can't find out on the internet.

Boating is awesome. Welcome.
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Old 02-02-2012   #14
Skillkilla's Avatar
Arvada, Colorado
Paddling Since: 2009
Join Date: Mar 2011
Posts: 296
yep, but was referring to the water not the boater !
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Old 02-02-2012   #15
Shelby, North Carolina
Paddling Since: 2012
Join Date: Aug 2011
Posts: 59
I completely agree with you Phil U. that a good kayaker could paddle any kind of boat on any kind of water. I understand kayaking is gonna be completely different then anything else i've ever done. It looks like a blast and a much cheaper hobby then my current and past hobbies that i've done/do. Heck, it might take me 5 years to even get to where i can run my first class 4 creek. I dunno, since i've never kayaked in my life. Just baseing every sport/hobby i've done in the past i've been able to progress very quickly with it, and i'm keeping my fingers crossed that kayaking will be the same, but i might be in for a rude awaking? Just have to wait and see, but looking forward to it!

Im just tring to research the river runners vs creekers as much as possible before i buy my first boat and curious if there is gonna be that much difference between a flat hull boat vs a more rounder hulled boat?

I've been to two dealers a few times, sat in a lot of different boats and have asked a million questions! The boat that has fit me the best has been the Nomad, but unsure if that's what i should go with because it's a "creek boat" and didn't know if that's what i should start with or does it really matter that much? I've sat in a remix, stomper, karnali, shiva, nomad, villan, and one other that i can't remember? I loved the bad ass outfitting of the liquid logics the best, but as far as "fit" (especially in thigh/leg area) the nomad fit the best IMO. It was like putting on a tight glove compared to the other's i sat in.
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Old 02-03-2012   #16
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Boulder, Colorado
Paddling Since: 2003
Join Date: Oct 2003
Posts: 2,032
You're missing the point

Starting in a playboat will make you ready for creekboating faster. A playboat can take you down anything a creekboat or river runner can in your first couple years of boating. It will amplify the effects of all your movements and the river features forcing you to learn faster. You will crash more than if you were in a creekboat/river running as you learn proper technique. This is a good thing. It's generally ok to crash in class III, and you'll do that a lot starting out. Crashing in class V and even class IV can get ugly.

This claim that you can't run class IV/V in a playboat is just silly. Dane was a better than me when he was still in diapers and I've run plenty of creeky IV+/V- in a playboat.

As an aside, I'm not much into playboating but there's no doubt that playboating can dramatically improve your creekboating skills.

You should do some internet searching if you want to learn more about boat design, but in general a beginner will have an easier time controlling a boat w/ edges than without. But yes, the differences between designs won't be important to a beginner.

I think you're starting to butt heads with the kayaking culture. Kayakers are generally humble and respect the power of the river. Most everybody who's been doing this for a while has seen new guys come out charging hard and paddling stuff way over their heads. The river can be remarkably forgiving, but if you can paddling out of control it will eventually catch up with you. Watch the true experts out there and see how they negotiate a rapid. If you can't move with the same control and ease as they do, hit the same eddies and make the same moves, you're likely not really successfully paddling the rapid even if you came out unscathed at the bottom.

It's good to have goals, but maybe it's better to formulate your goals differently than I want to run X river in N years.
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Old 02-03-2012   #17
ashland, Oregon
Paddling Since: 2000
Join Date: Dec 2008
Posts: 222
Originally Posted by tango View Post
you're going to get spanked
second that one!
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Old 02-03-2012   #18
Duluth, Minnesota
Paddling Since: 2007
Join Date: Nov 2011
Posts: 175
As someone who has recently made the switch from paddling a play/runner (Fun) to a creek boat, I can say that my personal experience is that they are both teaching me different things. The playboat will teach you about the smaller aspects of moving water, ie. how that little diagonal is going to kick my ass, whereas a creek boat may bounce over the top of a lot more stuff. The creek boat will make you pay attention to other things such as ferry angle. Things like trying to ferry out to a wave can be completely different. With a playboat it doesn't take much to change direction, barely a flick of the paddle. That means I can almost point my boat to the other side of the river and spin once I hit the wave. In the creek boat if I'm not pointed upstream I'm going to get washed out and miss it completely.
Now, I'm not really a creeker, but if you want to paddle creeks you're eventually going to find yourself stuffed in a hole and in need of some playboating moves to extract yourself. It's much better to get that experience in a controlled setting before having to swim out of a hole at the entrance to some long trashy rapid. You don't necessarily need a playboat to learn that stuff, but when you say that you're not interested in playboating at all, just keep that in mind. I echo the above statement about checking out some videos, maybe check out some carnage reels and it will demonstrate this.
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Old 02-03-2012   #19
Fort Collins
Join Date: Oct 2004
Posts: 129
Based on what I have read, your choice of boat will be far less important than your choice of helmet...Good Luck!
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Old 02-03-2012   #20
Shelby, North Carolina
Paddling Since: 2012
Join Date: Aug 2011
Posts: 59
Originally Posted by co_bjread View Post
Based on what I have read, your choice of boat will be far less important than your choice of helmet...Good Luck!
Easy pick! full face top of the line for me! I've always looked at my motorcycle gear in the past as "you get what ya pay for". And i have found that to be true through the years of riding both dirt and street. So i've decided to stick with "you get what ya pay for" for kayaking as well and plan on buying top notch equipment!

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