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Old 04-04-2010   #1
flagstaff, Arizona
Paddling Since: 89
Join Date: May 2007
Posts: 148
Post your support/no support of multiple Grand trips in a year here

I believe the relaxation of the one year rule for the Grand Canyon is going to allow anyone to go a second time between November 15-February 15?

I'm in! I met a retired guy down there this year that ran a 30 day in January and turned around and ran a 30 in February. What a life


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Old 04-04-2010   #2
Join Date: Jun 2005
Posts: 103
I'm in favor

I have no problem with multiple trips in general. I remember looking at the statistics when this was being decided and thinking that it wasn't a problem, even back in the wait-list days. Now, with it restricted to winter trips, it's just not an issue. Very few people want to do winter trips, and once they do, they don't do them very often.

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Old 04-04-2010   #3
Crested Butte, Colorado
Paddling Since: 82
Join Date: Feb 2010
Posts: 201
I'm in favor
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Old 04-04-2010   #4
lhowemt's Avatar
at my house, Montana
Paddling Since: 2020
Join Date: Apr 2007
Posts: 4,346
Support. It seems people often have a hard time putting together winter trips, which this proposed rule change might help. It is nice to know winter trips are really easy to get (both the actual permit or with another group looking for people), so the only negative would be if there were enough interest they filled up TOO much. I don't see that happening.
I am a river, babe - I've got plenty of time, I don't know where I'm going, I'm just following the lines..... - "We are water" by Shaye
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Old 04-04-2010   #5
flagstaff, Arizona
Paddling Since: 89
Join Date: May 2007
Posts: 148
winter trips are fun


"Very few people want to do winter trips, and once they do, they don't do them very often"

I haven't seen that here. I was booked(we are small) last winter(09) and everyone but one group that went last year re-signed up for a winter trip(10) again. The one that didn't has another Grand trip this year in August, and 2 of the folks that have gone the last two years have already signed up for another winter trip(11). One guy in particular I saw down there did two back to back 30 days and he loved it. I too want to do a winter trip for 30 days November to February definitely isn't the high demand year but hiding out for 30 days in the canyon is cheaper than being on the rim

The awesome Irish folks sent a great video of them swimming around and getting sun tans, they love our winter Their first trip was an 11 day, and this year they bumped it up to a long 14 Alaskans and Canadians don't seem to mind either. One group in particular was so resourceful they made a hot water heater out of copper tubing that is heated by their fire. It's pretty cool and while people are enjoying the fire it spits out hot hot water. Brilliant. Well, while I don't want to candy coat the winter, I did see alot of folks loving it over the years. It's nice to have the option to grab a winter trip if one isn't available in the shoulder seasons.

Hot Water Heater by Fire:

Take a 5 gallon bucket and punch a hole near the bottom fitting a white pvc threaded doohicky out to the outside. On the outside put the corresponding pvc nut on the doohicky. Take about 8 feet of 3/8 copper tubing and run it out 3 feet or so with one circle(or more for more hot flow) in it sending it back near the other end. Connect the Doohicky to a radiator hose and to the 3/8 copper tubing end. Off the other end of the copper tubing connect another hose to fill up your dishwash or solar shower.

Fill up the pail with water and then place the copper tubing right in the coals. It takes a few minutes to heat up the first water but once you get it going it comes out hot!

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Old 04-04-2010   #6
Tom Martin's Avatar
Flagstaff, Arizona
Join Date: Dec 2004
Posts: 817
Hi Brady, we at River Runners for Wilderness were against the one-trip-per-year rule that came about in 2006, any time of the year. and have been asking the NPS to modify this rule ever since.

NPS data from 1998 through 2002 demonstrated that only 1.21% of all self guided river runners participated in more than 5 non-commercial river trips in the 5 year period 1998 to 2002.

We are not talking big numbers here.

All the best, Tom
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Old 04-05-2010   #7
yakrafter's Avatar
Whitewater Boater, Boating Whitewater
Paddling Since: 2004
Join Date: Aug 2006
Posts: 147
Oppose! Without such regulations, things will be unregulated and if they are unregulated, well you know what happens when things are not regulated, they go on unregulated. Haven't you guys been watching?

Just kidding. Clearly the system has been working in regards to getting people on and there have been open spaces or small last minute groups using these spaces in the winter.

Holistically, we should loosen ALL regs till we find out the threshold for regulation in the 1st place and leave things right around there. Otherwise we either unfairly limit access to a resource, as in this case, or we eliminate segments of the free market, like banning steet vendors. If a small problem pokes it's head up, we can then implement a small soln.

No need to debate the potential effects and waste lot of peoples' time, just do it and see how it goes next year....then decide.

I say go for it.
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Old 04-05-2010   #8
Andy H.'s Avatar
Wheat Ridge, Colorado
Paddling Since: 1995
Join Date: Oct 2003
Posts: 2,909
Its a great idea

I think its a great idea and something that, if it didn't damage the current relationships among the groups that negotiated the current plan, should be implemented ASAP. Private boaters should push for this in the next CRMP review and hopefully we'll get it.

However, Tom has a really good point about this issue, we're not talking about big numbers here. I've also heard that yearly its something like a few tenths of one percent - so maybe 50 or 100 boaters have the time and resources to go on two GC trips in any given year. If this issue becomes a sticking point in negotiations and has to be left on the table to maintain or improve the overall access situation for private boaters, I can easily live without it (even if it means some launches go unfilled).

Nothing in the world is more yielding and gentle than water. Yet it has no equal for conquering the resistant and tough. The flexible can overcome the unbending; the soft can overcome the hard. - Lao Tse
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Old 04-05-2010   #9
Jenks, Oklahoma
Join Date: Oct 2004
Posts: 1,407
As long as there are unfilled winter GC permits, I say open them up

My take is if a person is able to handle the cold and has the desire to make a winter Grand Canyon Trip and there are open permits ---- let them go and have fun!!!!
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Old 04-06-2010   #10
Join Date: Jun 2005
Posts: 103
Originally Posted by moetown View Post
I haven't seen that here. I was booked(we are small) last winter(09) and everyone but one group that went last year re-signed up for a winter trip(10) again.
While I haven't done a winter trip, I know lots of folks who have. They love them. One even managed a solo 30-day self-support kayak trip. Anyway, while they all love the trip, but they don't do it every year. I'd say that most go about every fifth year or so.

The fact that there are available launches, even with half the launches assigned during the waitlist transition, means that there isn't a lot of demand for them. Otherwise, they'd all be taken and we wouldn't be having this discussion, eh?

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