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Old 12-04-2013   #21
Westminster, Colorado
Paddling Since: 2010
Join Date: Aug 2009
Posts: 286
Originally Posted by caspermike View Post
You mean Hydrodynamics?

hydrodynamics - definition of hydrodynamics by the Free Online Dictionary, Thesaurus and Encyclopedia.

Originally Posted by caspermike View Post
My problem with Cdot is they are not engineers they are people working machine that will move the rocks
This is why it is so important for the community to give ideas and their thoughts. As Ian has mentioned earlier there have already been changes to the river system due getting the roads back open. That is to be expected. What would be nice is to see the engineers take the feedback and consider the recreational side of things the best they can. That way the SSV or other affected river corridors wont see many changes for the worst. Everyone knows that their main priority is to get the road back into safe condition and continue the clean up process. But if you don't speak up now, when the project is complete and things are completely different it will be to late to act. Never hurts to ask.....

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Old 12-04-2013   #22
Rockies, Colorado
Join Date: Jul 2008
Posts: 2
You never know maybe CDOT has some engineers that love front range class v runs that will take an interest in getting as much work done in the river channel as possible.

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Old 12-04-2013   #23
caspermike's Avatar
Bozeman, Montana
Paddling Since: 1999
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Take the feedback and consider the recreational side of things? Hahaha yeah and who's paying for this. It's nice thoughts but work isn't free
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Old 12-04-2013   #24
4CRS, Durango, Colorado
Join Date: Apr 2006
Posts: 295
Props to you Ian for getting on this. If Cdot is willing to listen and possibly consider recreational interests then I am all for it. It would be great to have a voice in the planning process. If possible have them put a clean 30 footer in there with a nice recovery pool. Thanks!
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Old 12-04-2013   #25
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Lakewood, Colorasta
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Posts: 843
Thanks for all your hard work Ian. You never know what your influence will be unless you try. Power in numbers guys. We all are on the same team!

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Old 12-04-2013   #26
Durango, Colorado
Paddling Since: 1996
Join Date: Jun 2004
Posts: 808
Nice work Ian opening up the lines of communication with another public agency regarding boater concerns.

I would suggest framing our interest as a safety issue. Railings, rebar, etc, in rivers can be a hazard to a whole range of users like tubers, swimmers, and people who fall in. While CDOT's mission is (unfortunately) not making sweet rapids for us to kayak, safety in the river corridor arguably is. It would probably be most productive by starting with these issues.

I also second the clean 30 footer. It would make the front range a bit less lame.
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Old 12-05-2013   #27
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Belgrade, Montana
Paddling Since: 1991
Join Date: Sep 2013
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I do a lot of work for MDT here in Montana and following the 2011 floods up here we have had a lot of reconstruction projects, mostly bridge replacements (no entire channel realignments or road rebuilds) but in my opinion a great avenue to pursue is the USCOE permitting process. The temporary disturbances mentioned to shore up and rebuild roadways will need to be addressed, at least we usually needed to here.

Several things to think about is that MDT had huge plans to restore large stretches of river/streams associated with bridge replacements, their rationale was to gain stream mitigation credits with USCOE for use on future projects. Ultimately their budgets were stretched so thin with the number of projects that in almost every case, they abandoned the restoration plans and simply replaced the bridge and did nothing to the stream (other than in the immediate vicinity of the bridges). This includes leaving debris in the stream if it couldn't be reached with a machine from the project site. If you can get CDOT to think stream mitigation credits they may be more interested in spending money outside of the right-of-way, but be warned that they will undoubtedly plan big and scale back as budgets are realized, it's the nature of the beast.

Secondly, MDT has a lot of engineers, they design many of their projects in-house and typically contract out large or problematic projects that will tax their own resources too much, but ultimately their engineers review and approve nearly every design aspect we submit. I am certain the CDOT operates similarly and has an army of engineers on staff.

Caspermike was searching for the term hydraulics, (Hydraulics - encyclopedia article about Hydraulics.). Hydraulic engineer's perfom much of the design work to engineer stable stream streches through impacted areas (bridges, roadside bank armoring, etc.) Im sure CDOT has hydraulic engineers that work with rest of the design team to build structures and roadways that will withstand "normal" flood events (100 year, etc.) not the stuff you guys saw this year.

I think it's great to get involved in the design process and it will make a difference in the end. All of our projects here include public meetings and comment sessions where interested parties can voice their opinions to project management and the design team. Many comments are ridiculous and are probably simply ignored, but others when well thought out and articulated often get consideration. But I do think it's important to have realistic expectations, this rebuild process will be lengthy and expensive and CDOT's primary responsibility is to build a good, stable road. The environmental concernes, while important and mandatory thanks to the clean water act, are secondary. You will need to think of creative ways to get channel alterations/restoration incorporated into design in my opinion, especially in areas not directly affected by road reconstruction.

One last thing to think about: Coarse woody debris (the scourge of boaters) is incredibly important to the biologic and geomorphic health of mountain streams, advocating the removal of such will quickly get you on the bad side of the project biologist, so think of creative ways to keep wood in the stream while keeping it safe to boat.
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Old 12-05-2013   #28
Denver, Colorado
Paddling Since: 2004
Join Date: Apr 2004
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Great comments from folks with good ideas. Lots of fks are working this on multiple front including boulder playpark, Lyons town and play park, up canyon construction, and up canyon stream bed enhancement.

No one has done this before so its a mad scramble to figure it out be we are making progress. No one is nieve to the challenges or schedules or budgets but we will try and get what we can done. Definitely a long haul project.

Key players are mobilizing and engaging CDOT, politicos etc.

If you don't think Cdot had engineers you are clueless, which we knew already but way to prove it for the 5000th time publicly.

Colorado has world reknown whitewater design engineering firms that are already in the game.

Will keep the buzz up to speed. We will likely need some public support and fundraising in the future.
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Old 12-05-2013   #29
Thronton, Colorado
Paddling Since: 2008
Join Date: Mar 2009
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Originally Posted by glenn View Post
Imagine the many thousands of decisions that must be made during these rebuilding times. Some of these decisions will have nearly identical outcomes when viewed from a transportation and construction perspective but wildly different outcomes when viewed from a recreational perspective...
Don't forget cost and schedule. CDOT will surely do what is quickest and least expensive, all things being equal (transportation and construction).

All they can do is say no however, so go for it.
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Old 12-05-2013   #30
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Bozeman, Montana
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Join Date: Mar 2007
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Obviously they have engineers Ian but what caused the problems to the areas that were fixed that you brought up. sounds like a really good engineer !!

Like I said the people placing and moving rocks aren't the people in the office with the degree.. Good luck but be realistic kayaking isn't what the world revolves around and when it's not just one canyon that's fucked you have to keep one foot on earth, best of luck..

Keep realistic expectations otherwise you look like a space codet to anybody who doesn't understand kayaking good luck.

As a far as being clueless I don't expect Cdot to dredge the riverbed cause you lost your class 5 run waah waaah. All on the taxpayers dime due to natural causes. Yeah I'm clueless ian

How much does it cost to rebuild a destroyed highway how much for several?

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