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Old 05-04-2006   #11
Da Fort, Colorado
Join Date: Feb 2004
Posts: 42
Its a tough issue. You need a permit, likely a 404, to legally do any work within a stream. Technically, it is likely against the law to create a feature as you did.

As far as the FEMA floodplain issue... if there is a regulatory floodplain along this stream corridor, there are a lot of hoops when improvements are done because you need to make sure you don't raise the water surface at any point along the stream during a 100-yr flood, and then you can submit a no-rise permit, which is just kept on file and not reviewed by FEMA. If modeling (done by an professional engineer) shows that the water surface is increased due to improvments, the exact changes in the floodplain and their effects must be sent to FEMA for approval, and you'd need a reason for rasing the water surface.

Its ugly. Your best hope is that the po-pos just forget about it.


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Old 05-05-2006   #12
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Local, Colorado
Join Date: Oct 2003
Posts: 344
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That's pathetic! You would think that the Fuzz would have better things to do with their time and tax-payer money.

Perhaps they should investigate those devious meth labs. . . or find lost cats.

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Old 05-05-2006   #13
Join Date: Jul 2004
Posts: 42
looks like it could be sweet but...

The laws are probably different out here in CA than in CO but we had an incident last year where some boaters moved around some rocks in Troublemaker on the S.F. American and it created quite a stink. The hole might have gotten stickier who knows, they moved it by hand and with a pry bar supposedly. I don't think they jacked up the spot and your creation looks pretty good but I certainly wouldn't want to just let anyone do whatever the f#@$ they wanted to to the river. You've got liability issues to think about too. Doubt it will be a problem either but something to consider. Just to be the devil's advocate...what if someone moved 30 yards of rock by hand into one of your favorite rapids that their property backed up to? I guess my take is you gotta be careful what precedent you establish.
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Old 05-05-2006   #14
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Join Date: Apr 2005
Posts: 131
youd think! especially for the quantity of Meth labs in clear creek county!
I understand they are just responding to a call from some other pathetic loser looking out their kitchen window!

I think they need to get in some plastic and paddle a bit and free themselves!
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Old 05-05-2006   #15
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Moab, Utah
Join Date: Feb 2004
Posts: 245
the information provided above is all generally true. i only offer some additional points.

given that you are in g-town, it can be assumed that the stream in question does have a floodplain identified, especially given the proximity of houses to the stream based on the picture. i suspect the reason the po-po were called is because of the sensitivity about flooding in your town. sand bagging to save houses and the town as a whole freaks folks out, so probably someone saw you moving boulders around and went ballistic.

to legally do what you did, the following would generally be required:
1. a 404 permit: this is a permit from the army corps of engineers for wetlands disturbance. in any "waters of the US" (rule of thumb = any named stream or trib on a quad map depicted by a blue line), activities in the stream bed are subject to this permit to prove you are not destroying wetlands.
2. a FEMA permit called "Letter of Map Revision" or LOMR: this clearly shows (through calcs and modeling by an engineer) what the impacts of the activity are to the flood plain, and that no property(ies) are adversely impacted. in general, you can not raise the water surface of a mapped floodplain by more than 1.0 foot under ANY circumstances, unless you are a government agency which in turn gets you a little leeway on this rule.
3. local permit: probably administered by g-town, called a "floodplain development permit" or something similar. likely difficult given the po-po scrutiny to date.

i would further suggest caution here. if any flooding occurs this spring, and any of your neighbors upstream or downstream have damage of any kind to their property, they could have a case against you for causing/contributing to their loss by illegally modifying the stream. while it seems silly for something this small, that is the general interpretation of the law. i am not a lawyer, take with a grain of salt, but beware.
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Old 05-05-2006   #16
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Old 05-05-2006   #17
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Thought-criminal, Colorado
Paddling Since: 2000
Join Date: Mar 2005
Posts: 989 it up at night, black ops style. Ski mask. Night vision goggles. Wait until late so you're nosy neibors are asleep. What they don't know won't hurt em.

This harkens me back to the wise words of Public Enemy..or was is NWA:

"God Bless the Police"

That was it...right?
I hope in the future Americans are thought of as a warlike, vicious people, because I bet a lot of high schools would pick "Americans" as their mascot. -Jack Handy
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Old 05-05-2006   #18
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Longmont, Colorado
Paddling Since: 2004
Join Date: Jul 2005
Posts: 260
based on the size of those rocks, if the water ever got high enough to produce a significant flood then I am fairly positive it would wash that sucker right out.

I looked at the floodzones outside of Georgetown and they appear to be mostly contained within the banks ("streamlined").
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Old 05-05-2006   #19
Join Date: Apr 2006
Posts: 12
I got it. Tell the neighbors you're aerating the creek for the rare greenback cutthroat trout population. How can anyone not support that? In actuality if there are trout in there, which looks very possible, you are doing the citizens of GTown a huge service.
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Old 05-05-2006   #20
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in a van down by the river, California
Paddling Since: 1974
Join Date: Oct 2003
Posts: 126
nice wave, but what if you added more?!!

Its tough to imagine that a guy moves a few rocks around in a ditch and gets a call from the Police... imagine the kind of trouble that could come from taking a big dump in the river there.
(A real big poop could potentially displace a ton of water and could cause flooding in Georgetown you know.)

Speaking of poop, remember the 100,000 gallons of partially treated sewage spilled into Clear Creek at Georgetown 09-28-2005 when the power outage occurred at the Georgetown Wastewater Treatment Plant....

I dont think the cops were called on that one and certainly no fines were levied.

IF there were any teeth to the Water Quality Laws, and IF public health really mattered, then dumping SEWAGE into Colorado creeks would be slightly more important that Joe Rock piling up a few stones in clear creek.

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