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Old 06-28-2005   #1
pnw, Washington
Join Date: Oct 2003
Posts: 3,404
Pine Creek hole question?

I was watching the Pine Creek X teaser clip and saw something that confused me and I thought I would ask you guys to explain. The hole that keeps grabbing everyone on that video doesnt look like most of the nasty holes that I have seen. I know that a couple of holes on this run are somewhat infamous. Most of the nastier holes that I have seen dont have a wave, in fact the less commotion on the top I thought the worse they are. Now this Pine Creek hole seems to have a large wave but looks incredibly hard to escape. Explanations?

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Old 06-28-2005   #2
Join Date: Aug 2004
Posts: 18
Now I cant answer your question but I would like to see the teaser you watched>>> Where can it be found?

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Old 06-28-2005   #3
WhiteLightning's Avatar
Eagle County, Colorado
Paddling Since: 2002
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I'd like to see the vid too. I just posted a pic in Rodeo (not sure if this is a freestyle move, or wildwater!) of my raft going bass-awkwards through Pine Creek. I think this is one of the holes you were talking about that doesn't look bad but is real sticky.
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Old 06-28-2005   #4
jonny water's Avatar
Geologist, Colorado
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Old 06-28-2005   #5
Denver, Colorado
Paddling Since: 1999
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The video doesn't, unfortunately, show the true make-up of this hole. The reason it is so hard to get out is that the shoulders feed back into the meat of the hole. So each time you paddle to the edge of the hole to exit, it picks you up and throws you back into the meat. The meat of the hole has about 4 feet of backwash plus it has about a 4 to 5 foot high foam pile. It gets less retentive at higher flows, about 2500CFS and up it is a much easier rapid. 1100CFS to 2500CFS are its most intense levels.

It is a VERY VIOLENT hole!!! It scared many of the competitors during the race! This is a quote from Andre Spino-Smith (aka Dr Dre)...he had a very big surf in Quater Finals.
"Man, that is a scary, violent hole...I really thought I was going to swim"
For those who don't know of Dr Dre's resume, he is not afraid of playing in very big holes!

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Old 06-29-2005   #6
Central, Colorado
Join Date: Oct 2003
Posts: 90
Following Mark's post -- a couple of pictures from a run last year, around 1,900 cfs:


More at:

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Old 06-29-2005   #7
surrounded by mountains, Colorado
Paddling Since: 1981
Join Date: May 2004
Posts: 475
ledge drop

Yahoo! Yes, the S turn hole deservers its respect. It has a particular keeper characteristic between 1500 and 2000 cfs. This is because it is pretty much a straight across, river wide, ledge drop. Having run pine creek maybe a hundred times in my 25 years, I have almost always made that S maneuver around it. At 4500-5000cfs it is impossible to miss though, and I have been really able to realize what a amazing pour over turbulance is happening in there. At that level, while hoping to spear and punch right trough it, upon getting slammed by the wall of water in front of you, my bow has been snapped straight down to where, ever so briefly, I was standing on the pegs, and then instantly snapped with the bow straight up. All in the blink of an eye, like flipping over an hour glass, you feel how stoppish and deep the recircurculation is. Then, at those levels, the rushing current behindyou loads up against your back, flattens your chest against the bow and pushes you through the wall of water on a tail stand through it, not above it. It's pretty cool. Unfortunately, at 1500-2000, like when the Boater-X race occurred, you do not get pushed through. You drop in and stay in it's straight across and closed off ends grasp. Hee hee! As te CRC book says, "Where action and reaction reigns." You can't see and just have to feel what direction things are taking you. Below this level, the hole can be played with. And at higher levels you will be pushed out. In that special range, though, it wise to either take the far left line (the road), definitely make the S cut maneuver, or get ready for a beat down. You definitely do not want to swim, as several have drowned over the years because the action does not let up for another mile still. Piney is a classic run, though. Granite to #6, much like the North Fork of the Payette, is the poster child of what classic kayakingis all about.
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Old 06-29-2005   #8
Join Date: Apr 2005
Posts: 22
Hole munch pics from the race.

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Old 06-29-2005   #9
pnw, Washington
Join Date: Oct 2003
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Thanks for the posts and the pics. I can see from the pics that it LOOKS like a hole, from the video it appeared to just be another wave. That concerned me. I also see people making the S move and that looks like the winner. Thanks again.
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Old 06-29-2005   #10
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Local, Colorado
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That thing looks worse that the Osterizer on Cross-Mtn - sheesh!

I haven't run Piney yet and probably won't for another year or two, but I've scouted it and from the pics here, it looks like you can sneak the hole on river left right next to the rocks and avoid it altogether.

Is this true or am I missing something?

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