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Old 06-16-2005   #71
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Old 06-16-2005   #72
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Thanks, Medman. I could not believe the context that quote was used in--proves what a little (very little) bit of knowledge can do. It is funny to see people argue their points with internet search engines clearly working in the background, trying mightily to prove their point. Nothing like re-working history to win an arguement. Anyone who would like to assert that our nation (the best on earth, by the way) is not founded on judeo-christian beliefs is wrong, and the proof is evident in the writing of our founding fathers. Our nation was also wisely designed to protect minority groups (is it 80 or 90 % of our nation that is Christian?), including other religions.

J Rock,
Thanks for a great post. You have a unique and genuine perspective from the inside. And I think it's funny, too.

I have no interest in commenting on current politics here (isn't that what boatertalk is for??), but this twisting of history with some google search is a little unbearable. Sorry for the ranting.

"Government is like a baby: An alimentary canal with a big appetite at
one end and no sense of responsibility at the other."

- Ronald Reagan
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Old 06-16-2005   #73
wannabe raft guide/kayak instructor
Join Date: Jun 2005
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I admire your devotion to your ethics and morals. At the same time, what you just posted says to me that if you don't vote republican, you have no morals/ehtics. I do not want to get into a shouting match with you, and I admire your devotion to your beliefs, but I think that God is neither a democrat or a republican.

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Old 06-16-2005   #74
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Medman: I understand that Jefferson was referring to Jesus when he said "Reformer". What you seem to fail to understand is that the "artificial scaffolding" he referred to is the mysticism surrounding Christianity (virgin birth, etc.), which he rejected as superstition. He even went so far as to write a revised New Testament (Jefferson Bible) deleting all references to miracles and portraying Jesus as just a extraordinary man and a powerful moral leader--not a diety. While this may or may not meet your definition of a "Christian", it absolutely is NOT a "fundamentalist", which is what you claimed our nation was founded on.

If you're actually interested in context, here's the complete letter to Adams that the quote came from. (Note the rejection of Calvinism, i.e. Puritanism at the beginning.)

And here are a few more Jefferson quotes to get your blood boiling...

“I have examined all the known superstitions of the word, and I do not find in our particular superstition of Christianity one redeeming feature. They are all alike founded on fables and mythology. Millions of innocent men, women and children, since the introduction of Christianity, have been burnt, tortured, fined and imprisoned. What has been the effect of this coercion? To make one half of the world fools and the other half hypocrites; to support roguery and error all over the earth.”

"Question with boldness even the existence of a God; because, if there be one, he must more approve of the homage of reason, than that of blindfolded fear."

“Christianity...[has become] the most perverted system that ever shone on man....Rogueries, absurdities and untruths were perpetrated upon the teachings of Jesus by a large band of dupes and importers led by Paul, the first great corrupter of the teaching of Jesus.”
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Old 06-16-2005   #75
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You know what I haven't had in a really long time?... Big League Chew.
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Old 06-16-2005   #76
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Medman '
I was coming on lineto make a correction and a modification .
Correction=I'm surprisedno one called me on this the quote"endowed by their creator"is from the Declaration of Independence not the constitution,although the point is still valid,the founding fathers were opposed to state sanctioned religionand the constitution does prohibit state establihed religion.
Modification=my statement about over compensation was directed more at high level business people than doctors,for doctors I WOULD AMEND IT TO ;well compensated and reimbursed for educational expenses.Icould prove my point with an argument based on educational costs,per capita income figures,and the average pay of American doctors ,but i'll srare you and everybody else.
One other bone of contention is this bullshit notion that morality only stems from blind allegiance to religous traditions,to me morality can be arrived at by reason tempered by empathy.You critically analyze the impact of your actions on others,and give a enough of a damn about them not to do things you don't think are right, you put principles before self intrest,not coincidently this is analogous to the golden rule.Zoroaster,Buddha ,and Confucious ,all said essentially the same thing long before Jesus.
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Old 06-16-2005   #77
Join Date: Apr 2005
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I've actually enjoyed this has kept me entertained for sure. All you guys have made some valid points. My take is that both sides (Dems and Rep) have their own agendas. Each side says that the other side screwed things up or are putting a spin on the reports. I just heard the tail end of a conversation on NPR (sorry...I don't really know who was speaking or what they were talking about), and both parties put their own little spin on some report. The Rep. were stating that the report was positive while the Dem. were saying that it was was the same report that they based their information on. In my mind...both of these parties are corrupt. That being said, I certainly do not support Bush in the White House, but I also wasn't very comfortable when I was voting for was the lesser of two evils in my mind.

And Medman...I know being a Dr. is difficult, but no one made you go into that profession did they? I've never met a Dr. who has brought up studying so much in my life. I know you have to do it, but I hope you don't expect people to feel sorry for you because of that...

Originally Posted by medman
As for the asshole who decided to bark up my tree with overcompensation statement--I'd like to invite you to come down and spend 2 weeks with me and see what it is that i do. I've boated 5-6 times in the last 2 years b/c that's about how often I can get out; I just use the buzz as entertainment breaks when studying gets old. If you did your research you'd find that after paying overhead, your mechanic, photocopy repairman hell even you waiter at a nice restaurant probably make more per hour than your average primary care physician. In fact there is a shortage b/c many of them are saying F you--I don't need this and deciding to repair copy machines. At least people don't sue the photocopy repairman. If I decide to go into heart surgery I will be 38 years old when I finally finish residency. Just for basic surgery 33 and after that I'm lucky if I get to see my wife. Lucky for you, doctors don't do it for the money--it just kind of pisses (at least me) off when people like yourself who probably bitch if you have to work 9-5 and can't boat at least 5-6 X a week and still make a decent living bitch about stuff you know nothing about. May you catch an antibioitic resistant STD.

I will have to say that Bushy totally dropped the ball on Education...His No Child Left Behind policy is a total joke except we (the educators) have to live up these unrealistic standards without any additional funding. Do you know how many kids in my class this past year did not have any books of their own at their house? It's pretty scary, that's for sure.
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Old 06-16-2005   #78
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Old 06-16-2005   #79
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Sure thing MM! I plan to be on the Ark this weekend, and on the outside chance that we were to run into each other and know it, I'd be more than happy to buy you a beer and toast our differences!

Good luck on your exam!
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Old 06-16-2005   #80
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Anyone who is capable of getting themselves made President should on no account be allowed to do the job.

- Douglas Adams

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