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Old 09-08-2010   #41
smauk2's Avatar
Near water (hopefully), Colorado
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^ I'm not saying I agree with making rivers safer, just presenting information on the subject, hence informative not persuasive.

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Old 09-09-2010   #42
FoCo,NoCo, Colorado
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I was corrected on this recently. It was a Petersen AFB rec program boat that wrapped in Sunshine in 1995. The AFA rafts assisted Petersen is extracting their raft. The collective effort of removing the wrapped raft is what moved the rock.

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Old 09-09-2010   #43
wannabe kayaker
Dayton, Ohio
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Originally Posted by rhm View Post
i'm not so sure about trying to make dangerous river features safer. i think that doing so could open up a big can of worms for who ever tries to make a feature safer. for instance, what happens if someone like the national park service fills in an undercut rock on a river so that nobody ever drowns there again. then somebody else gets killed under another undercut rock on the same river that they didn't fill in. the park service would then be liable because they made one feature safe but didn't make the other one safe. they can't make every rapid safe, so therefore to keep themselves out of the courts they just don't try to "fix" any dangerous spots.

like others have said, i'd stick with talking about safety and how to avoid the dangerous spots, or what to do if you find yourself in a dangerous spot. those dangerous spots are what make whitewater rivers and creeks fun in the first place.
I recall reading something about the NOC filling a foot entrapment spot on Nantahala Falls with concrete in response to one accident. I just looked in the AW accident database, but didn't find that specific reference. Might be worth checking with Charlie Walbridge.
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Old 09-09-2010   #44
Carbondale, Colorado
Paddling Since: 1965
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A bit of old history here. The Royal Gorge used to have a low head dam (for the CC water intake) that was nortorious for killing people. Back in about 1972 a couple of GI's from Ft Carson drowned, and the city had stopped using the dam so the army came in and blew the shit out of it. Problem solved and few people even remember it was there.
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Old 09-09-2010   #45
Carbondale, Colorado
Paddling Since: 1965
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I realize that the above reference was a man made feature and the discussion is about altering natural features for safety. INMO we alter almost every single aspect of of our "natural" environment for safety and ease of use. From bolts on rock climbs to trails in the backcountry. Why should a river be any different? I'm not advocating wholesale remodeling to turn our rivers into waterparks, but if a know feature repeatadly is killing people and the environmental impact is short term, why not deal with it? Just my opinion
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Old 09-09-2010   #46
Littleton, Colorado
Paddling Since: 2010
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Are the two low-head damns on the lower Blue run safe? I ask because I've already paddled right through them, but nonetheless, I'm told they are lowhead damns, plus Eddy Flower says this:

2 dams Class II
There are two diversion dams about 100 yds apart as you begin to exit the tall cliff section of the canyon. They are horseshoe shaped with the apex pointed upstream and made from piles of rocks. Keep some speed and roll over the apex. There is a sign warning you on the right for the first dam.
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Old 09-09-2010   #47
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Those dams on the lower Blue aren't low-head dams. They are nasty, but not as bad as a low head dam.
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Old 09-09-2010   #48
Salida, Colorado
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I would like to point out that notoroiusly fatal river features are generally on popular whitewater sections. Your research might include accidents per capita for the rapids you discuss. For example the Arkansas, Gauley and Chatooga rapids and dams suggested have thousands of people that float through without any problems every year and other creeks and rivers that only a few hundred or less float per year take lives for one reason or another.
Other inporatant data to include might be water flows, water temperature and experience/skill level of the victims.
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Old 09-09-2010   #49
Littleton, Colorado
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Originally Posted by basil View Post
Those dams on the lower Blue aren't low-head dams. They are nasty, but not as bad as a low head dam.

Alright, thanks for the clarification. I figured they were alright, considering the slope through the big rocks. It was very easy to paddle through, but it looked intimidating.
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Old 09-09-2010   #50
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Steamboat Springs, Colorado
Paddling Since: 1996
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Originally Posted by onefatdog View Post
there is a gnarly undercut sieve in woodall right in the middle. the write up in the southeastern whitewater book talks about it and the grappling hook attempts to dislodge trapped bodies that really just dismembers them.
Still talking about Crack... Any of the 5 falls can be deadly on the Chattooga. Woodall Shoals has a terminal hole at higher flows and Bull Sluice has killed plenty of non-experienced swimmers. Raven's Chute has also killed, but Crack has had the grappling hook issues.

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