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Old 04-05-2007   #51
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Indian Hills, Colorado
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Holy cross refrence powhound!

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Old 04-05-2007   #52
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Greater tri cities metro area, Colorado
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Originally Posted by JBL View Post
My personal favorite is when people say the Numbers is class III. Maybe III+ at high water.
when compared to clear creek (lawson, lower, upper...) I can't even see how a IV can be applied? (unless very high water) Very easy to avoid the holes & low consequences, this was the biggest dissapointment when I was coming up to be a IV padler. I was expecting some type of difficulty. So since this is the "benchmark" IV then is CC a sandbag? Or is sheer numbers of gapers a reason for upping ratings also? lol

I know I'm pissin on a paddler's skirt here, but it seems hugely off to me, which is where some of my downgrading comes from.

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Old 04-05-2007   #53
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Boulder, Colorado
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OK, that's all I needed. Time for the annual Numbers rating debate. I'm with you. At higher flows, IV is a fair rating for the Numbers. Below 1k though, I don't see how anyone can call this run a IV. Number 5 probably rates a IV- because there's a little bit of vert to the entry drop followed by continuous flows, but the consequences here do seem minimal. Worst case scenario is a swim to the pool below? All the others are classic straightforward class III water. Pretty much point the boat straight down the middle, paddle, and all will be well.

I remember doing Numbers the first time around 700 or 800. I read and reread the description until I was plenty nervous. I think when I got to Number 5 I thought surely I was only on #2.

Clear creek class IV sections are tighter, more continuous, holes just as large, lots of sharp rock, but clearly not class V, or even IV+ (unless flows get big)

So Kirshbaum is a IV+ and at 2200 Numbers #1 is also a IV+? Sorry, can't see the equality.
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Old 04-06-2007   #54
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exactly, there's a stack of other IV that wipes the floor with the numbers, so if that's the standard then all those others are way off. middle narrows= numbers? lawson is easier than numbers? even with numbers over 2500 & lawson below 500 I don't see it.
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Old 04-06-2007   #55
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I'd have to say the same about the gorge also, 1 sticky hole doesn't make for a IV based on most other runs. I totally agree with the earlier post about climbing ratings, some variety in the WAY we rate a III,IV etc would go a long way toward creating a safer paddling community, but to have someone paddle numbers or RG then think they're ready to step up to some IV+ is asking for trouble. upper east, crystal narrows, bailey or gore (without tunnel) after numbers, I don't think so.

This is how I look at the grading, is the next step logical? if there's a big gap, then something's off.
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Old 04-06-2007   #56
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Ok, I think we should start a new thread for rating rapids and runs in general. This is way off topic from what I asked initially. By the way, I agree that the numbers at normal flows is more of a class III+ type run as long as your in a kayak and not a raft. However enough people have died or almost died in Sunshine Falls over the years due to foot entrpments and the hole that I still believe its a class III move, but it's a class IV rapid overall due to consequences. Thanks for all the input on whether it's possible for someone to get out of the hole on their own, but let's move on!
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Old 04-06-2007   #57
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To me this is not a problem. The Ark has gotten such a high level of press and just about everybody has paddled here. The Ark is truly the quintessential paddling area and river that Colorado is known for – above all others. So it makes sense to me and also to CRC #1 “the bible” - accepts the Numbers as the “quintessential class 4 in Colorado”. Just a guideline - all class IV will be a bit different - nothing here to get your panties in a bunch over.

Progress for the paddlers in the Ark and is Colorado is measured fairly I believe and the current system works for this area.

Here is a simple example - Browns 1st (Class III), Numbers or Royal Gorge 2nd (Class IV), pine and numbers 3rd (Class 4 and 5), laps of pine 4th (Class V), Clear Creek 5th (class V), Lake Creek (Class V), and finally Lower Lake Laps (Class V+). I know some super sic-o’s out there probably don’t think Lake Creek is a class V but this rating system is logical and has worked for me.

Oh yea and if the Numbers is just a easy class III for ya – why even run it? Or why bitch about it here? Drive the extra 15 min up to Lake! Come on - join us up at Lake above 500 (there are only about 40+ days of this flow each year). Then you can come back, prove that you are a sic-o, and post that Lake Creek is in reality is only a class IV.
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Old 04-06-2007   #58
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Oh, sorry, I wasn't saying it was III, just that it's not IV (or that I don't feel it should be a IV). It's not about proving something,that's doen on the river, not in a forum. It's about keeping boaters safe, that's why UNDER-rating is dangerous also!
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Old 04-06-2007   #59
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what about the idea that runs where there's heavy commercial activity (like RG) are anti-sandbagged, either intentially or not, so that the outfits can sell more of their extreme trips?

this minor point seems relavant to this convo.

Is this one reason why the elevation of RG rating seems to pervade the paddling community?

and for the record, i too, have had a very close "friend" swim out of sunshine at low water....
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Old 04-06-2007   #60
Denver, Colorado
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Well hell yeah! The season is officially here and we can start ripping each other about boating instead of fucking politics. Thank god.

At normal flows, numbers is a class IV. Its not the hardest class IV, and probably on the easier side of class IV, but the rapids are long, do require some moves, and it will eat up class III boaters who are not ready in a heartbeat. I'm sure some of you heros run number 1 backwards while munching a cliff bar, but at normal flows I'm making busy moves to avoid lots of holes, and when I've taken class III boaters there, we are chasing gear at the bottom of number 1. Thats class IV. Simple test. Ark at 1500 cfs... take a class III boater down browns and they are loving life. Take a class III boater down numbers and they are swimming, or scared shitless. Nuff said.

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