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Old 01-07-2009   #21
Breckenridge, Colorado
Paddling Since: 2002
Join Date: Dec 2008
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Everything breaks! At least eventually, for the money no way man, I would rather buy five boats than deal with a mistake.

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Old 01-07-2009   #22
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Bozeman, Montana
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Join Date: Mar 2007
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even though you are reducing the weight of the boat the mass to weight ratio is barely effected. you still have to get your body over the water for big tricks so i don't see how losing 10lbs helps a bunch why not lose 10 lbs your self and eat a little less you will save money around the entire board.

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Old 01-07-2009   #23
Join Date: Oct 2003
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I think the biggest advantage would be the stiff hull. The weight reduction is nice, but you really do not notice it unless your wearing a dry deck and stay completely dry in the boat. Having a stiff boat is nice, but it is also very "spanky" any little motion you put into it the boat reacts to. I am not sure why you would want full carbon over just a composite boat?
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Old 01-07-2009   #24
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Denver, Colorado
Paddling Since: 2003
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nobody's bitching about how expensive new squirt boats are....
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Old 01-07-2009   #25
Len's Avatar
Buena Vista, Colorado
Join Date: Dec 2003
Posts: 99
Originally Posted by tango View Post
nobody's bitching about how expensive new squirt boats are....
I am. $2,000+ for a 10 year old design!

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Old 01-07-2009   #26
somewhere, Colorado
Join Date: May 2008
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I wonder if it really will be less strong than plastic. normally carbon is much stronger, which is why it's used to reinforce plastic in many applications. it's still ridiculously expensive, but it might just be the super strong material everyone's hoping for.
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Old 01-07-2009   #27
Join Date: Nov 2003
Posts: 1,302
I'm all for companies pushing the envelope in boat design. Hopefully this is the next great innovation in kayak material.

I'm skeptical of the strength though. WS isn't exactly saying how strong it is for one, so I doubt that it's stronger than plastic.

Skeptical of the comfort improvement, since I have yet to find a boat that is truly that comfortable. And I'm not sure how much more I'm willing to pay for only slightly more comfort (although if you could make me completely dry inside my boat, that would be a start).

If I owned one, I'd be bitching about the cost of squirt boats too. And that's why I don't own one. Well put Len.

In technical terms, I think the cost vs the improved performance vs the durability ratio is not looking good on this boat. I thought the old Sin squirt boats were cool as shit when they came out (they still are cool), and they definitely cost more. But they didn't take to the mass market for a reason (maybe price again, and I think they were cheaper). If I don't have much of a warranty, and I'm going to purchase new to market technology, then the performance benefits that I perceive have to be huge for me to pay a premium price for the product.

Ken, good call on the stiffness. I could see how that would make a difference in the freestyle realm. And it might be more comfortable when you piton (my two most painful piton's have been in a playboat).

Electric, not sure if the lighter ends helps with rotation. I think it can also make it harder. Years ago I had a comp weight Riot Glide and a regular weight Riot Glide (I think they were about 15-20lbs different). The regular weight was easier to cartwheel and throw around because the heavier boat carried more momentum from end to end. They seemed to blunt the same too.

I think with a price tag of about $1500 this boat *might* be the newest best seller (did someone say Drago Rossi).
Kyle McCutchen
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Old 01-08-2009   #28
Join Date: Oct 2003
Posts: 15
Carbon boats hurt bad when you hit rocks, so Kyle stay away! We still have a full carbon fiber disco for sale in our UK shop, about $600 bucks with exchange rate! For everything but wave surfing, I really do not see the advantage to the super stiff boat.

Peak UK - Shop

This is not something that is "new" its been done before, and it never took off back in the old days.
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Old 01-08-2009   #29
Join Date: Apr 2004
Posts: 39
OK Fine

I have been building composite boats for the last 25 years. Glad to be done with that!!!! The short buss is a composite play boat that I have designed and paddled for the last 3 years and like all boats it has its design problems, but if you are serious about play boating,,,, I am sorry but plastic sucks!!!
Until you spend some time in a composite boat you have no idea how much better any composite boat reacts moves and slips on the water!!! Kudos to Wave sport for offering the boat and at that price. It truly is reasonable!!! The price of carbon has increased form 14 bucks per yd to over 45 per yd!!!!! All composites have gone through the roof over the last Bush Years. That is what an invasion cost you!!!
Race boats are still around 2000.00 and different laminates from Europe vary from 1200 to 2200 for race boats. I know for a fact that there is a butt load more material to build a quality play boat. If I were to build the short buss for folks at 2800.00 that would cost ME money to build a boat for that price!!! If you get a chance to paddle a good composite boat you will see!!!! The nice thing about composite if you break it you go home and patch it!!!!! If it is build well it is difficult to break!!!!
3 years,,,, same play boat,,,,,, 2 patches...... stiff 19lbs of paddling heavin............. priceless,,,,,,,,,,,,,
Composites are expensive!!!! Don't like it don't buy it,,,,,If you want one,,,,, it is a good design so go get it!!!!!!!!!!
Cheers JB
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Old 01-08-2009   #30
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Lakewood, Colorado
Paddling Since: 1993
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Posts: 436
Strengthwise, Carbon has its plusses and minuses. Weight to weight its very strong compared to many other materials. However, its not very impact resistant and tends to crack rather then deform like plastic or metal. The stiffness is much better, but it certainly won't get along great with impacting rocks and such, beyond a certain point. Hence why you see Freestyle, Squirt and Slalom boats made of it and not creekers.

However, having worked for Wildwasser for a year or so, I did get the chance to try a Carbon/Kevlar prototype of the Prijon Kompressor creek boat (came out at the same time as the Embudo) on a medium level Bailey trip, and it did pretty well coping with the few big hits it took that day (mostly in the duldrums after Deer Creek, though it did hit the FU rock at the top of the double drop in Steeps 2). The big issue with composites are that when they take a hit thats harder then most, they tend to crack rather then dent, so thats annoying. On the plus side, they are easier to fix then plastic when the do crack. Just a bit of fiberglass or carbon and some epoxy and you are good to go, if a bit less pretty afterward.

I can't honestly say whether that having this Carbon boat will make any huge difference, since I never really progressed past cartwheeling an looping. I do think that having less weight in the boat area will make airial moves easier and more snappy, especially ones like an air screw or helix where the boat rotates around the body as much as the body around the boat. There has to be a reason why many companies make a "team trim" boat with thinner plastic for their team guys. This just seems like the next step on the progression.

I guarantee that a fully carbon Slalom boat will be as much or more expensive then this thing is, and even the most succesful Slalom people will never make enough to make it worth it financially. Sometimes you just get the stuff that makes you more competitive. It'll never take on in the mainstream of boating, but who knows in the competitive and yuppy sector.

Oh, and Ken and JB are right, WS certainly isn't the first to do this. When Riot started, they offered many of their boats in a Carbon model. There is a company in Europe that only makes composite boats too (totally spacing the name but its on Playak). Ocean surf boats have also been doing this for a long long time.


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