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Old 05-18-2005   #51
Livingston's Avatar
Denver, Colorado
Join Date: Jan 2004
Posts: 679
Well, shit. I really didn't want to litter this thread with this so I'm done after this. Again appologies, hope someone gets something helpfull out of this.

To clear up any missunderstandings, the pressurized air device that is essensially a miniature scuba tank is called Rapid Air, the tube with a valve on the end is called Quick Air.

I gave Jeff of Rapid Products some engineering advice and drawings on the mouthpiece valve, specifically the exhaust part of the double check valve. I did this for purely altruistic reasons, the same reason I posted the previous replies on this thread. If I charged for it, it may have costed more, and that might have prevented a sale of a product I thought could save a life. I only mentioned my affiliation with the product to show credibility, that I wasn't just some yahoo.

In Ryan's situation, as I interpret it, I would actually prefer someone to have handed me a Quick Air rather than a tube. With a rescuer handing the device to victim, and maintaining control of the open end, the Quick Air is superior to a simple tube.

My concern with the Quick Air, and if you read my posts it should be evident, is that you are unable to purge the thing. If I'm pulling a Quick Air out of a pinned and swamped boat, blindly lifting it out of the water, popping the lid, and taking a quick breath, I think there is a good possibility that you could get a mouthful of water due to spray, slash, or popping the cap off too soon. It is unlikely that the water will be calm at the scene of a pin. If I've got a lung full of air, and I exchange that for a tube full of water, now I'm choking and that much closer to unconsiousness. This scenario is where I see the product "causing more harm than without."

So it is my OPINION that not knowing how the pin is going to occur or who is in control of the breating tube (rescuer or victim), the simple tube is the better choice if I was going to carry just one.

Jones, you are right on with your interpretation.

Gary E, I guess my response to you is the same, "what the hell are you talking about?" Your posts seem to be talking about both the Rapid Air and the Quick Air at the same time, therefore making no real sense. If you meant Rapid Air in your first reply, we agree, you just missunderstood and should probably read a little closer (or write a little more legibly). But to say I shouldn't come onto this forum with my comments where people share ideas is contradictory. I'm simply advising this community of a possible danger. And to answer your question, no, I've only used the Quick and Rapid Air on land, not submerged. But getting all aggro at me is just a bit uncalled for. Please try to contain yourself. If you still dissagree, fine, at least you are aware now of the purging issue.

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Old 05-18-2005   #52
adrock's Avatar
Fort Collins/GWS, Colorado
Paddling Since: 1995
Join Date: Apr 2004
Posts: 208

indeed, lets try to keep a thread like this clean. No ego trips. No rants. Be tactful with your opinions. If this is your only outlet to talk to people about paddling, you need to go paddling more or get a life for that matter.

In the case of Ryan's rescue, none of the above metioned shit would have worked as he was pinned in deep (I would venture 5-6 feet) very fast flowing water, in the middle of the river. At the point I got to him he was completely panicked and would not have dealt with me putting something in his mouth if I could have even got something to his mouth in the totally precarious position I was in. Still in my boat, doing everything I could just to try to get close to him. Trying to get a tube out of my boat might have been a waste of precious time.

In certain situations a tube or air device might be useful. I think it is great for us all to go out and do some research on our own on tubes and air devices, that probably would have been enough said on that topic.

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Old 05-18-2005   #53
pnw, Washington
Join Date: Oct 2003
Posts: 3,404
Well if ya follow Gary E's logic then the pinned individual would have had a breathing device on him and would have been able to breathe for a while. I think the rapid air idea is worth checking out. I want to be careful about 2nd guessing what went on that day but if I understand Gary correctly then each member would have the rapid air in their pfd where it would be readily available.
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Old 05-18-2005   #54
adrock's Avatar
Fort Collins/GWS, Colorado
Paddling Since: 1995
Join Date: Apr 2004
Posts: 208
rapid air

I see your point, even though it sounds like somewhat of a marketing pitch and an impossibility. (that everyone would purchase one, and have it in their jacket).

Just to clarify. There was no chance for anyone else to give Ryan a rapid air, due to the circumstance of the pin.

$349 for a rapid air.

If Ryan had one of these in his jacket, there is a chance he could have used it, even though from my experience that day he seemed panicked beyond using any logic.

Has anyone out there actually used one (rapid air) in a real rescue situation?

Backing up, I think the first steps would have been more experience, some SR training, better boat, better jacket. Situation may have been averted.
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Old 05-18-2005   #55
BV, Colorado
Join Date: Jun 2004
Posts: 55
Drop the rapid air/ quick air bullshit...

Did you buy every single piece of gear that existed when you were just learning?

If you want to talk off topic than take it elsewhere.

Otherwise dont add to the emotional stress these great individuals are already dealing with, by throwing more well if you had this... than you would have avoided that bs at them. People die every day when seatbelts and air bags work.

If you were not there, shut the f*%! up.
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Old 05-18-2005   #56
Join Date: Apr 2005
Posts: 4
Do these kind of events happen often or is this a once in a boaters lifetime thing?
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Old 05-18-2005   #57
adrock's Avatar
Fort Collins/GWS, Colorado
Paddling Since: 1995
Join Date: Apr 2004
Posts: 208

responding to the question above:

This was my third/fourth encounter of this sort in paddling for 9 years and guiding for about 10 off and on. So I guess it just depends on how much you paddle and what you paddle. I think the more you run harder water, and the more days you spend on the river, the more you will encounter these situations. It is part of the sport. I think most of us have come to grips with that. The trick is being prepared for it by setting proper safety and getting rescue training (formal or informal).

This was definitely the most intense and lethal situation I have encountered in those ten years. I hope to go at least 10 more before dealing with it again.
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Old 05-18-2005   #58
Join Date: May 2004
Posts: 3
I was one of the first boaters on scene. I am sorry it has taken me so long to tell my story, i guess I am still trying to figure it out. I was directly behind ryan when he was pinned, ryan rolled upside down right before the rock, he floated upside down into the rock in the worste spot possible. (I am still not sure if I actually saw this, however I have these visions in my head). The rock ryan floated into had a v like point, the boat was pinned on the left and his body was pined on the right, this imeadiately I knew this was serious. I ask myself if I was in that situation could I have gotten out of my boat, my answer at this point is no, his knees and body were on different sides of the rock, the tip of the v was in his waste. So far the posted details of the rescue are acurate to my knowledge. This event was scary as shit and extremely emotional. Ryan was able to keep his head out of the water for a limited time, we watched him strugle, I think he over exerted himself and passed out, at this point he was completely submerged. The scariest thought to me is what would we have done, without the bridge and the road. Things worked out extremely well, the situation could have been allot worse. I think we all did an amazing job. I was extremely adament about taking putting ryan in truck and heading towards the fort. was this the right thing to do??? my logic was (the sooner he gets oxygen the better his chances are).
whitnessing this event was by far the most scary moment of my life, the dark feeling I had was undescribable and I wouln't wish if upon my worste enemy. My thoughts are still scattered.
I will try my best to get together with you guys in the fort.
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Old 05-18-2005   #59
BV, Colorado
Join Date: Jun 2004
Posts: 55

I wouldnt second guess the decesion to go ahead and head towards town. Half, or more, of the guys in my department talk about how they are not waiting for the ambulance if the s*#t hits the fan. I am not dissing on ambulance services or any EMS personell. The rational is--I live and recreate in a rural area, so volunteeres are coming from home, to respond to their station, and then get on the road w/ the ambulance and/or fire truck and travel 5-40 miles, or more or less, that time adds up in a hurry. The intercept worked well for you all. That happens a lot around here.

I am in no way advocating not calling for the ambulance or fire. You should always call for help when needed. When you get into rural/wilderness environments you just have to make discisions a bit differently, and that is why wilderness first aid does some things differently than traditional front country ems. You definatly made the right call on that one.
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Old 05-19-2005   #60
Join Date: Jan 2005
Posts: 305
Sounds to me like everyone did what they sould have done, By transporting to the EMS you saved valuable time for him, I would have tried to do the same and have involving a couple of Scuba incedents, a training site was several (30+) miles from a main road and it was requested by the EMS to meet them.

About the air tank idea, It MIGHT work it MIGHT not the biggest problem with back up air systems is that the rescue could be delayed (he has some air) and that the person over breaths and drains it faster than you would think. We used a system Called a Spare Air and the air goes real fast during panic breathing.

That is my pennies...

I would want to have you guys there for me....

Don't do anything, just stand there.
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