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Old 05-17-2005   #41
Join Date: Jan 2005
Posts: 305
Don's statement about the length of hose is true, depending on the depth of the lungs in the water. The avarage Scuba snorkel is 17'' to 20'' do to the compression of water on the chest over 24''+ most people can't inhale fullyand for co2 build up. The breathing in thru the mouth/tube out thru the nose would work to stop co2 but not much deeper than 24'' for the lungs to expand with the breath, so you couldn't even give rescue breaths to a person below that depth, But shallower than 24'' It works great, back in the olden days of Scuba training we did snorkel to mouth breating in training class before the pocket mask came along.

Don't do anything, just stand there.
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Old 05-17-2005   #42
BV, Colorado
Join Date: Jun 2004
Posts: 55
To all those involved with Ryan's rescue,

You guys did an amazing job under incrediable circumstances to save his life. Feel good about that. As a firefighter/emt, i can say with total confidence that the operations of Ryan's rescue went perfectly. The otcome could not have been any better. If you look hard enough at anything you will find flaws, so what. You guys did a stellar job. That opperation required lots of man/woman power. You had it. That job required lots of expertise. You had it. It required lots of team work. You had it.

I personally can think of hundreds of incidents in the fire service that dont go so well or even have the desired outcomes met. And this with people who are trained everyday to deal with these types of high stress incidents.

My point is this, don't keep rehashing this incident in your head. Do have a group de-briefing/reunion asap. Keep it positive. Celabrate life.

Again, great job to all of you.

Ryan, I wish you a speedy recovery, and hope to see all of you on the river.


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Old 05-17-2005   #43
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Denver, Colorado
Join Date: Jan 2004
Posts: 679

I probably should have started a new thread, appologies for the tangent. But I feel stongly about safety issues and thought the "tube" idea might save a life in the future and get more views here.


You are correct about the water pressure acting to collapse the lungs and making it more difficult to inhale the deeper the chest is in the water, Quick Air does nothing to improve that situation over a simple tube, but...

3' of tubing will keep the end of the tube out of any splash. Optimizing the length makes no sense to me. As stated above, in through the mouth, out though the nose. With the Quick Air, there is no way to purge the tube with a burst of air like you would with a snorkle. Using the Quick Air, you can either inhale it, drink it, or hold it out of the water to drain it, then keep the open end out of the water as you put it in your mouth.

I am familiar with the Quick Air device, I am the engineer who designed the valve in question. But at the time, it was SPECIFICALLY designed for the Rapid Air device, which I think is a great product. I have no affiliation really to that company, all the work I did was done for free because I thought it was a good product. I didn't even ask for a sample/prototype. Jeff, a great guy and small business owner who I randomly met at Waterton one day and loaned my PFD to, needed a valve designed (my specialty at the time), so I volunteered. So being the engineer behind it, I've got a pretty good idea how it should be used. A tube is better. After this recent scare, and recently finding the valve used on Quick Air, I got concerned because I'd hate to see a product that I'm loosly associated with give a false sense of security or possibly cause more harm than without.
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Old 05-17-2005   #44
Charc in = charc out
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Seattle, Washington
Paddling Since: 1992
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Posts: 475
I'll work on getting everyone's availabilities for a get-together. I'm assuming Ft. Collins would be the best place.

As for the EMT question ... I have absolutely no idea what the EMTs looked like or even how many there were. I had a very narrow focus during those moments.
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Old 05-17-2005   #45
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Jackson, Wyoming
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Livingston,what the hell are you talking about"false sense of security"?Have you ever tried quick air?Probably not as you would not be posting the trash you are posting...My first time using quick air was in a pool and I stayed down for 6 minutes no problem,you could stay there until hypothermia sets in with the product...A hose has been tried by all of us and that my friend is a false sense of security...So you can purge the hose,think about everything you need to do too breathe through it---oh yeah and then deal with the stress of your bones breaking,being trapped whatever the pin your in,deals to you...Then where do you put the hose?Let me guess in your boat or are you holding it above water where minimal water will enter the hose..If your holding it above water I'll take the easy way to breathe everytime"quick air"...If your gonna have it in your boat,well then you better be the greatest purger in history when your skirt emplodes or you pull to try to get out...Most pins your head is 6 to 12inches below the surface and your mind set is not on anything but trying to breathe not remember how to do it right with a hose...

I carry quick air as do my friends and that product is well worth every penny you spend...It has a cap on it so you don't have to purge before you use it and I personally would take a swallow of water to breathe through quick air...It's easy and thoughtless,just what I want when I have eqaully important shit on my mind...When I take quick air to the east or west everyone tries to steal the thing...So you don't like the product Livingston,then use your hose,hopefully you never will need to know which is better,but don't come on here and spew about a product that would work in the above situation everytime...Sorry about the rant but for some guy to come on here and run his mouth about a great product that does work,pisses me off..

Be safe and paddle where you can breathe
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Old 05-17-2005   #46
Denver, Colorado
Paddling Since: 1992
Join Date: Apr 2005
Posts: 7
I also wanted to throw in more thanks to all involved in the rescue. I’m new to Denver and I haven’t been paddling much out here because I know all too well how important the entire group is to running a river. Although you may know the extent of your abilities, “stuff” happens. 8 years ago, when I was 16 I found myself in a similar situation. The rest of the group had hiked out to watch 3 of us run the rapid. I was lucky enough to be able to get a couple of breaths but couldn’t get unpinned. One of the other girls got out of her boat and onto the rock and she was able to pull me out. 8 years later she is still my closest friend even though we’re lucky if we see each other once a year. You all did an amazing job and I hope you will someday understand the extent of what you did for Ryan. Sorry if that was cheesy…Liza
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Old 05-17-2005   #47
, MA
Join Date: Apr 2005
Posts: 34
Not trying to add to a feud, but I read Livingston's post a bit different than you Gary. I read it as the hose with the valve attached is not as good as a plain hose. I don't think he was talking about the device that holds air.

"Using the Quick Air, you can either inhale it, drink it, or hold it out of the water to drain it, then keep the open end out of the water as you put it in your mouth. "

This to me is talking about the hose that you can't purge when the valve is on it. With the self contained device you don't need to purge because water will not get into the hose.

Livingston, I hope I'm not making to many assumptions as to what you were trying to say.

In my opinion the self contained quick air device is the best bet, but if you don't have that, can't afford it a plain hose is better than the one with the valve attached to it.

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Old 05-17-2005   #48
Andy H.'s Avatar
Wheat Ridge, Colorado
Paddling Since: 1995
Join Date: Oct 2003
Posts: 2,909
Simplicity is a good thing.

It seems to me that up to the point when you take that big last gulp, you should have enough air in your lungs to blow the water out of a 2-foot long piece of 1/2" ID hose. Or you could hold it above the water and sling it around a few times, then cap the end with your thumb before submerging it - and without a valve on one end it won't matter which end you've grabbed.

The hose off a raft pump would work or you could throw down $2 for a piece of rubber radiator hose at the auto parts store (which could have another use if you caught a take-out bandit in action... ). Whichever, you'd want something stiff enough that it wouldn't collapse when your out-of-breath lungs start sucking in precious air.

I hope I never need one...

Nothing in the world is more yielding and gentle than water. Yet it has no equal for conquering the resistant and tough. The flexible can overcome the unbending; the soft can overcome the hard. - Lao Tse
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Old 05-17-2005   #49
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Jackson, Wyoming
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No worries Jones,something is better than nothing..If you have'nt tried the quick air then you wont understand how it works...You don't have to force air out when exhaling with the quick air..My point I was making to Livingston is,don't come on a forum where people share ideas and give good advice and say a product that definately works is a liability and "I don't want my name associated with the product"..I assume he has tried it since "he help design the mouth piece,but the way he posted I wonder if he has...Have you Liv?It is a great product that paddlers should at least try,make a decision whether it's right for them and go with their decision..

I'm with Andy and hope we never need one,yet I'm sure at one point or another in our paddling careers we all will wish we had a hose,quick air or whatever someone thinks up to get air in a bad position...I know of 2 times I would have had a little better of a day with anything that gave me options...Be safe folks and look out for your paddling partners and watch out for yourselves..
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Old 05-18-2005   #50
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Lyons, Colorado
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I would just ignore Livingston. I've known him for quite some time now and have noticed that he loves to make sh*t up and post it on the buzz. Nice one Livingston. Tell'em about that lens that you made for the Hubble telescope that's my favorite.

Go Dawgs!!!
Happiness is a way of travel not a destination
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