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Old 11-22-2010   #51
lhowemt's Avatar
at my house, Montana
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Originally Posted by psu96 View Post
blah blah blah....get over yourself
Come on, get the quote right. It's blah blah blah blah GINGER. (Loved the Far Side comic and had a dog named Ginger)

I am a river, babe - I've got plenty of time, I don't know where I'm going, I'm just following the lines..... - "We are water" by Shaye
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Old 11-22-2010   #52
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Originally Posted by lhowemt View Post
Come on, get the quote right. It's blah blah blah blah GINGER. (Loved the Far Side comic and had a dog named Ginger)
What?!?!? You're not gonna take a-fence and start a secondary flame war?


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Old 11-22-2010   #53
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BZN, Montana
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If it's a matter of keeping it safe and saving lives why aren't there more people demanding complete shut downs of river sections. Every time you put on you know you are taking a risk whether it's a rapid that has killed, or one that is waiting to.

I'm not really a fan of changing rivers, but if they are going to be significantly altered shouldn't they go through a proper process? Play parks require permits for re engineering. Frog rock was re engineered under the guise of a rescue, not a reworking to reduce the risk of the rock.

lhowe, yes the exact details of the ID issue are not the same as the frog rock issue. However, there was some funny business with both. I was surprised how vocal and uncharacteristically nasty the boating community got towards that situation, and when it came to this one, which really is not all that different, I felt like others were trying to shame me into being quiet. It's probably just because it's the off season and I expect next year when people start running this section, another series of threads will start up asking how/when/why the rapid changed. Maybe the real debate will happen then.

I think we are on the same page that it should be open for discussion, and that was my point.

I don't want either rapid changed, and I don't want to make personal attacks on those who are doing the rescues, or attempting to change the rapids through the appropriate means. Being shifty with permits, saying one thing doing another, and saying nothing changed so you won't be accountable when you should be doesn't sit well with me.

I don't live in the state anymore, so it's not my place to go in, asking for answers, but I am wondering why no one else here is.
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Old 11-22-2010   #54
Canon City, Colorado
Paddling Since: 2000
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I think some folks are losing sight of the fact that the motives behind actions are as important as the action itself, and that the same action might be justifiable when backed by one motive, and unjustifiable when prompted by another motive. In this case changing the river is the action, and the motivations are, in the examples cited above, safety concerns and improvements to increase play.

To me, the notion of people leaving a river in a completely pristine state, and never changing it is unbelievable and impractical. In the case of the Ark, it's already been modified beyond where we can possibly return it to its original state- trains, roads, and mining have all irreparably altered the river, for better or worse.

The idea of using heavy machinery to create an artificial hole or two, or even 5, with the intent of creating recreation may be OK. Obviously it depends on what kind of environment you're talking about.

On the other hand, the notion of changing rapids that are dangerous, to me, is quite a slippery slope. If we decide that one rapid is OK to change because it's dangerous, shouldn't we be looking at changes for all the rapids that have killed? What about locations where foot entrapments have occurred- should we be filling in every little gap in the bottom of the river? Just plaster the whole length from Leadville to Florence with quickcrete- turn it into the LA river so there's no entrapment hazards.

There is value in having danger in our lives- especially so in activities which we have the choice of participating in. If we completely remove all dangers in whitewater boating, skydiving, climbing- ANY adventure sport, we also remove a major part of why we participate in these activities. We know, accept, and embrace the risks of the activities we partake in, and I, for one, will no longer enjoy rafting if all dangers were eliminated.

A quote from Krakauer comes to mind, and I think translates just fine to boating: "Climbing was a magnificient activity, I firmly believed, not in spite of the inherent perils, but precisely because of them."
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Old 11-22-2010   #55
Join Date: Apr 2005
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Bunch of damn Philosophy majors in here. Does anyone here have a real money earning degree.
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Old 11-22-2010   #56
Salt lake City, Utah
Paddling Since: 2001
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Originally Posted by panicman View Post
Bunch of damn Philosophy majors in here. Does anyone here have a real money earning degree.
The degree has nothing to do with the money you earn. Example my philosophy degree has nothing to do with me working in engineering. And neither has anything to do with this thread
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Old 11-24-2010   #57
Buena Vista/Summit, N/A
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yo randaddy, what years did you work for ava?
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Old 11-24-2010   #58
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Enough with the six paragraph 400 word posts.

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