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Old 06-01-2010   #41
Join Date: Oct 2003
Posts: 566
Oh yeah, thanks for mentioning that Nathan because it brings up another - and very important matter.

BE HEADS UP AT THE PUT-IN. Due to the modification of the flow of water ABOVE the Lawson hole, all the flow heads to river left and into a potentially deadly, and pre-existing, strainer. I'm confident that local entities will be down there doing some trimming real soon, but a less than confident boater or tuber will be pushed right into it.

I watched two skilled boaters flip just above it at the put-in yesterday. Thankfully they have solid and quick rolls. However, I would be very concerned for the the wayward tuber or beginner boater that this park was designed to attract until someone who lives in the area and has a chainsaw gets down there to do some manscaping.

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Old 06-01-2010   #42
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Greater tri cities metro area, Colorado
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Originally Posted by Waterwindpowderrock View Post
If it's still good I'll give Gary a big sloppy wet kiss for adding a few more features to my backyard playspot, if it's bad, I'll be glad to give him a nice big kick in the nuts for wrecking one of the best things in Clear Creek county.
GAAAARRRRYYY..... COME HERE... I've got something for you, and it ain't a big sloppy wet kiss!!

So, I can bitch about what has happened, but the bigger question, how can we work together & get this fixed for next year. Is the resolve that they had for making it right going to stand? I'm pretty frustrated that they screwed up my backyard playspot, but I'm all for helping ensure that this comes back to being a place for people to come play.

Last year on Mem. day we saw a bunch of people stop on the way back from BV, this year there were two of us there. Two people stopped by & after watching the play a bit didn't even get in, one other guy showed up in the afternoon. All in all I'd like to be hopeful, but we are losing a whole year of good play at Lawson now. (who knows though, maybe at 700-900 the hole will be better than it was before?)

BTW, I'll stop by with my chainsaw & remove the strainer hazard, but really I shouldn't have to do this. They should have seen where the flow was going & gotten rid of this. The speed of the top hole makes it very likely that someone with a slightly slower roll will end up in this bush It will be gone tonight if I can get over there, worst case by tomorrow night.

Discover Denver, stay there!
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Old 06-01-2010   #43
Join Date: Oct 2003
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Don't worry. As long as you hit that wire with the connecting hook at precisely 88mph the instant the lightning strikes the tower... everything will be fine.
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Old 06-01-2010   #44
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Greater tri cities metro area, Colorado
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Ok, parked along 70 & went down to the river with the 25" bar on my saw so I could reach into the water better...


It's still a bit of a hazard for someone upside down, as I could only reach under about 6" & keep the saw going.

Sure would have been nice if the people who were paid hundreds of thousands of dollars to build the park had given a bit of thought to the safety of the boaters in the park when they built it.

Unfortunately, if anything this makes the main hole worse yet, as it may have slowed the water a little bit before hitting the left side of the hole. (not sure how much affect a bush has on flow if anything?)
Discover Denver, stay there!
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Old 06-02-2010   #45
Join Date: Oct 2003
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Stopped by this afternoon and at 500, a flow which used to mean "Honey I'm not going to be home till well after dark, and it wasn't all that impressive. I'd say the additional momentum the removal of the tree created in the water contributes to a pretty flushy feel, but a safer overall experience.

I spent a good 40 minutes giving it the old college try. Left ends are doable, but too far left and you're flushed. Right side is flushy and surges quite a bit. Loops and other dynamic hold moves are possible, but the lack of retentiveness makes sticking them and attempting combos much more challenging.

Interestingly, 4 people stopped by today. Only one other person bothered to get in with 2 top flight pro's passing on the session due to lack of interest in the feature.

At least the run is still fun.
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Old 06-03-2010   #46
Evergreen, Colorado
Paddling Since: 1991
Join Date: Mar 2004
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Wind and Twitch thanks for the updates on Lawson. I used to live in Evergreen and found it to be one of my favorite play spots in Colorado. It was perhaps the best hole for learning loops and dynamic moves in the state. I am frustrated to hear that they have messed with the rapids directly above and below the hole. Wind I appreciate your optimism that REP will come back and fix it next year. I hope that they will send Mike up to take a look at is as he really seems to have a great understanding of how to make things work well. Is there any chance that you guys might post some pictures of the new features?

Also I remember that the hole started to get flushy at 550+ perhaps now that it is flushy at 500 means that at 350 it will be super good... Just trying to be optimistic about it.
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Old 06-03-2010   #47
Join Date: Aug 2004
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I played in it at 350 last week and it was flushy. Optimism is good, but in this case it's not going to do any good. Best we can hope for is they fix it like they said. If not there will be a great spot for beginners to go to swim and get hypothermia.
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Old 06-03-2010   #48
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First I want to say that I dont know lawson - never paddled there and pry never will... When I travel to paddle I go north, south, or west. If I am headin east to paddle it is east of the mississippi...

Now I have been involved with the BV park since the start and even spent some time in a excavator moving rocks around. The process of getting any spot is not that easy and takes a entire community that is dedicated to making it work.. Not many people understand how it works and even fewer understand what it takes overall to achieve what we now have in BV and Canon... Well I guess salider too ..

Kaleb and Mark trust me I understand your frustration but I have learned that these spots are a process and not one time line item... If your community is thinking it is = they are wrong and need to know that they will have to commit time, energy, and cold hard cash not once but every year to keep up a quality park.

Here is a quick review of the work that has been done here in bv in the last 8 or so years.. Our upper spot has gone from boon to bust more than once it did not even work at all the first year so it was changed on y2.. She was getting ready to fall in (y7) the work this winter changed it for the worse.. So another change is going to happen this fall or winter. The lower hole a few years ago was too munchy and had to be changed.. The first wave attempt did not work well - neither did the 2nd wave attempt.. The staricase wave had to be tweaked this year.. I could continue as the list goes on - what I am sayin is that these spots are a process with up years and down years. Unfortunatly it sounds like you guys hit a down year at lawson.

The only reason we have these great spots here on the Ark is the time and effort that first off Harv, then south main, and the rest of us have put into gettin it right... Many times this happens on the second or third try. The bottom wave in BV is a product of everything that has been learned about this section of river and again a big gamble on south main's part to try and make a wave..

From what I have seen if your community is commited - Harv is commited to making spots that work and will come back again and again - to make things as good as they can be with I guess you guys have 200-900 cfs in there most of the time. This process has worked well for us in BV and I trust in Harv that he will do the best that he can with what he has to work with.

I guess what I am sayin is that these spots are a process and if anyone thinks that one will work every time then you are nuts. While it may not work this year just look it as part of the process that you learned what went wrong and spend your time gettin the money to fix it.. This is what we have done in BV and it is working for us.

Good luck and as I said I know the pain of loosing your backyard spot but if you keep the faith and work the process you will again have a great spot in lawson. If all you do is bitch about the hole, dont earn any $ for tweaks, and dont foster community wide support well then you will have what you get...
"I feel better than any other time when I am in the mountains and uh I cant explain it ya know...." - Shawn Farmer..........
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Old 06-03-2010   #49
Join Date: Aug 2004
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While I agree with what your saying the situations are different with Lawson. I don't know how Lawson came about originally, but it was a rough looking spot that had quite possibly the best play hole on the front range when clear creek was over 300-350. It was like this since I left BV 6 years ago, and I'm sure was good before then. In BV the spots are changing as a result of the river and the way the stream bed is always changing. Lawson changed because of what looks like very little hydraulic evaluation on the engineer's part. Reading this thread when it started I was under the impression that the improvements were to enhance the banks (they succeeded there and access is much better), not touch the good hole ( while technically they didn't touch it and the wave below it looks unchanged to me they altered the flow path coming into the hole), and they built some beginner friendly spots downstream (again success, but think beginner playing in a playpark with the water the temp of cc of the ark). I believe another stage of this project is to modify the culverts downstream, which is a much needed improvement if beginners will be there. I am a strong believer that they will be back in there this fall to fix it and this is a lost year for it, but when Shane posted saying they were not going to effect the spot it was disappointing to go there and find out they did.

I'm not trying to argue with you RDNEK, but just tell you my point of view on this spot that I used to go out of my way to stop at when I came up to BV, and how I think it is a different situation than the other parks they have built.

Maybe you can come down to the new bv wave and show me something this weekend. I'll be there Friday night since the go to spot on the way is no more.
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Old 06-03-2010   #50
Preacher of the Profit Paddling Since: 1990
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Just finished a session there....

Just finished a session there and it is very sad what has happened to the spot. I do know how this feature came to be and it was a river guide and his buddy who moved some rocks around to build what was one of the best features in the state. Now saddly it is gone and not worth the drive.

No beginner is going to start learning to paddle at Lawson. It's too cold. And if and when you swim as a beginner you would lose all your gear. The feature is currently lost. They changed to flow of the water leading into the hole. Instead of flowing down the center of the river, it now crashes into the left bank above the hole. I was a bit sick to my stomach when I saw what has happened. We truely lost a good friend this season.

The community should not have to throw more money at it to get it fixed. It should have never been altered in the first place. A couple of out of towners came in and screwed it up. IMO the good folks who invested in this pipe dream should get their money back. Because instead of drawing people to the area, these improvements will drive people away.

I'm still a bit taken back as to how bad these "engineers" screwed this up. Pure snake oil salesmen. Clear Creek Chamber you got taken. I'm sorry for you.

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