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Old 12-12-2011   #41
Randaddy's Avatar
Eastern Slope, Colorado
Paddling Since: 1980
Join Date: Jun 2007
Posts: 2,404
It's all about the downstream ferry angle. It makes a huge difference down there. House Rock is a very close call for the regular ferriers, but with the stern downstream you can be a mile from the hole. It just gives you the power and ability to get where you need to be in that big, pushy water.

People who ignore this advice and push, push, push, at least in 14-18' rafts, tend to have more carnage on the trips I've been on.

I like to drift sideways, identify the debris fan and the big waves and start pulling when I get scared.

Ah the Grand.... is it next year yet?

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Old 12-12-2011   #42
Join Date: Feb 2005
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OK, this is a terminology thing. Nothing that will bring about a risk of the Fall of Western Civilization.

I have never thought that you had to actually be moving upstream (relative to the banks of the river) to be doing an upstream ferry. If you are moving the boat laterally in the flow against the current -- and indeed just slowing the boat down instead of rowing upstream faster than the current -- I call that doing an upstream ferry. The boat is pointed upstream and I'm ferrying across the current -- hence, "upstream ferry."

I admit I'm a bit puzzled GC Guide, when you say, "You MAY slow down some, but you will not be able to move across." If you adopt an angle and row back upstream -- regardless of whether you overcome the river speed or just slow your downstream progress toward the obstacle -- the laws of physics move you sideways (across) the flow of the river. And yes, compared with a lot of folks, I'm a timid old geezer -- I do a lot of slowing down and re-positioning above rapids, as well as in the middle of long ones.

But again, this is far more likely a communication glitch than a real difference in the way we run. I'm betting you and I duck and dodge through Hance almost the same way. And we likely run Lava similarly as well, truth be told.


Rich Phillips

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Old 12-12-2011   #43
no tengo
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Baytopia, Colorado
Paddling Since: 1876
Join Date: Oct 2003
Posts: 1,768
Push It!

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Old 12-12-2011   #44
no tengo
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Baytopia, Colorado
Paddling Since: 1876
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Let me clarify my above.

Most rapids your ferry (pulling) should be used to get into position, then you face your waves and push. In some cases you will pull with your ass end pointing slightly downstream to get away from a wall or large hole.

Mr ledge hole started too late getting left. taking the time to spin around and pull might or might not have helped. he should have been doing that from the start, once he could see he was online it is time to spin and face the left wave and push.

I have seen countless intermediate boaters (some with years and years of experience but still intermediate nonetheless) try to sneak wavetrains by pulling. this is foolishness. you can even see a big boat flip in hermit in one of rg5's other vimeo videos because he was trying to sneak hermit.

in summary. 90% of the time line up with your ferry then push it!
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Old 12-12-2011   #45
Join Date: Sep 2006
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Originally Posted by Randaddy View Post
I like to drift sideways, identify the debris fan and the big waves and start pulling when I get scared.
Some of the best "read and run" advice yet, "start pulling when I get scared"!
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Old 12-12-2011   #46
Jenks, Oklahoma
Join Date: Oct 2004
Posts: 1,407
I suggest pulling way before you get scared
Get where you need to be for a easy push thru the gnar and enjoy the ride
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Old 12-12-2011   #47
steamboat springs, Colorado
Join Date: Apr 2010
Posts: 46
Originally Posted by Andy H. View Post
I saw a vid once of a boat getting chundered in there once and coming out missing its frame.
Might you be speaking of this CLASSIC?

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Old 12-12-2011   #48
Jenks, Oklahoma
Join Date: Oct 2004
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scary video, that is the fastest clean derig I have ever seen!
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Old 12-12-2011   #49
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Durango, Colorado
Paddling Since: 06
Join Date: May 2007
Posts: 450
you guys are all on the wrong page...what is the risk here?

I don't know shit about rafting and punched through the worst holes in the river in a 14' boat at high water!

enough of this childish running away. What the hell do you guys run rivers for? Camping with too much shit? Are you all seriously that scared of flipping? Call Tony @ 4 corners and get yourself a kokatat drysuit and run that shit. Hell, I tried on one of those rafting PFD's and though about swimming Hermit...they have like 90 gallons of flotation to begin with add in that nice puffy pillow thing back there - hell you're on a lounge chair!

I like the "lucky he didn't get hurt" quotes, I would like to add, "lucky he didn't make it"

You guys keep running your low probability sneak lines, and keep getting your shit handed unexpectedly. Me, I'll take the meat, and if I flip I'll see you in the same eddy - with a much better story, either way.

Like Mania said...pay attention to the first 18'er 6000 pound fully loaded raft with a veteran Canyon guide at the sticks...trying to make a bullshit sneak with "slow my heavy hitter down" backstrokes.

remember that Kinetic Energy is 1/2MV^2 so speed is exponentially better at being your friend. I can't help think you guys don't know what your raft is capable of if you push and T up because you have been pulling all your speed away all these years right before you get handed.


I've never boated before, but I have posted a lot on Mountain Buzz!
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Old 12-12-2011   #50
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Flagstaff, Arizona
Paddling Since: 1990
Join Date: Apr 2009
Posts: 520
If, in fact, the first boat was a commercial rig, it was a baggage boat and not a "seasoned guide".

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