yup, but our entire frame of reference will have to change. both bailey and the big south become class 4. so in this comparison supermax might be a 4.4.b and cool world on the big south a 4.5.b (i haven't paddled lake creek so i won't compare that). i prefer this system to either of our current ones. so what might be a 5.x.x in colorado?
Hey, its great to see these impressive posts. I threw out that question just to see what results may come, and come they did. It is an interesting question that allows people to really look at different views of what we all think something is rated. I appreciate the responses and its good that we can all have a decent off-season post. Have a great winter--- pray for the snow to come to give us a sweet spring run-off.
I don't know enough about Lake Fork to make a qualified post on that, but since it came up, I want to ask what the consensus is on Skull. Having run it a handful of times in that range, I don't think it's a IV. It is very intimidating (I'd call the scout a class IV) but the move is pretty easy, especially in a kayak. Technically, I'd call it a III-III+. Also, at that level the consequences of the hole and Room of Doom are not really great: I've seen people punch through the hole and miss the RoD and I've seen people paddle back up into the RoD, mess around in there, and get out no problem. What you guys think?
COUNT
P.S. Anyone surfed Sock-It-To-Me at low levels? It definately looks doable.
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"The world would be a better place if everyone kayaked."-Brad Ludden (Valhalla)
"You only get one chance to run a drop blind."-DD
I agree that Skull is III+. The move is easy, even in a raft, after you scout and know where everything is at. It could feel like a IV only if you have never run it and decide not to scout. I have never run Skull at very high water, maybe things change.
Do you really think that eye of the needle is IV+ at med/high water? I would think it would be in the V- range.
Sorry this thread was stolen to debate ratings, maybe a new thread should be started.
The people who made up the rating system (AW) use it as a benchmark rapid.
You are free to make up your own rating system and call Skull a 7.56(B) if you chose but on the system we have it is class IV.
The reason I make this point is to get folks to appreciate that the system, if used, will mitigate against exactly the kind of bracket creep we see here. The fact that we have many more class V boaters and they people are running more class V water does not change the physical reality of the rapids that are rated class III and IV.
The rating system has two purposes; first to give a general guide to boaters who have never run a give stream before; and second to give the rest of the boating community something to talk about around the campfire (real or, as here, virtual) . The first purpose is serious and we ought not let the second purpose erode the first. Downgrading is dangerous. Chris Kelly
The fact that we have many more class V boaters and they people are running more class V water does not change the physical reality of the rapids that are rated class III and IV.
That's probably the best point made yet in this discussion. You can't be downgrading just because it feels easier to you than it did when you were a class III boater.
For that matter, you might call the right line at Skull IV+ in a kayak -- harder to get there, harder to avoid a hefty surf, and harder to boof over the bottom hole. Short, but still demanding on precision and power.
"That's probably the best point made yet in this discussion. You can't be downgrading just because it feels easier to you than it did when you were a class III boater."
i don't feel that class V boaters are more likely to downgrade a rapid. i think they have a better appreciation for the range of whitewater and the skill it takes to run it.
and i still feel that our current systems (either AW or the classical system) need to be modified to better reflect the different components of a rapid or a run. only then will we be on the same page. as it is currently, some of us discuss the difficulty of a rapid while others in the same conversation say, "yeah, but if you mess up...". one's referring to the difficulty of the move (one component) and the other is talking about the consequences (another component).
It ocurred to me that a very simple way to add specificity to ratings within the context of the current system,and without changing to a decimal or 3 criteria system is as follows;use of /'s for borderline ratings,for example III+/IV- indicates the highest 3+ and barely 4-.Using this system a class is divided up into more than just IV-,IV, AND IV+, now you have III+/IV-,IV-,IV-/IV,IV,IV/IV+,IV+/V-.This doubles the specificity,it does not eliminate the subjectivity of peoples oppinions,but what system does ,just a thought.
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