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Old 10-24-2013   #11
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Fort Collins, Colorado
Paddling Since: 1996
Join Date: Jul 2009
Posts: 481
There's a whole other dimension here (literally). In some situations the stern deck can affect how you turn. Even if you're not doing a full on elevated pivot turn like you would in a slalom boat, a higher (non scooped) stern had a larger vertical cross section. When you take that enormous sweep stroke, you have to blast that stern through some water, usually. The scooped stern makes those corrections easier, making the boat feel easier to paddle.

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Old 10-24-2013   #12
alta, Utah
Join Date: May 2004
Posts: 121
Even though it was a piece of shit, gave me chronic back problems, and barely held together one season I miss my old New Wave cruise control. Although it didn't do anything particularly well by the standard we enjoy now; the lack of symmetry in the volume of that boat had some benefits. My experience was that it was very well suited for just straight on forward facing big wave surfing. I don't know this as a fact but, it seemed that when Chuck Kern died it had an effect on stern design toward a more bulbous or higher volume shape.

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Old 10-24-2013   #13
Preacher of the Profit Paddling Since: 1990
Join Date: Oct 2003
Posts: 1,062

Speed is more relative to the length of a kayak than the shape of the top deck. A longer boat is faster- Fact. The Stinger is a long boat, and I want to paddle one badly. I want to feel that fast again. I've paddled Wildwater boats and while very fast, I found it to be more challange than reward.

Josh is right with what he said. The Remix is fast until it gets weighted down and that has more to do with what is hitting it. The bottom hull, the part reacting mostly with the water, is fast.

Leif was right too. A stern that can slice through the water will turn the boat quicker during certain movements.

The Remix is fast for its length and width. Long boats are quicker than short boats, but skinny kayaks are fast. They have less down current drag and resistance.
I love to dance, but who needs the music- It throws me off.
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Old 10-24-2013   #14
Preacher of the Profit Paddling Since: 1990
Join Date: Oct 2003
Posts: 1,062

"I don't know this as a fact but, it seemed that when Chuck Kern died it had an effect on stern design toward a more bulbous or higher volume shape."

The Cruise Control is a great boat, but I perfer the Sleek. It stern squirts way better.

The Cruise Control was a river runner and surf kayak. While the Mongoose was New Wave's creek boat of the day. There was a different choice from other companies too. Lot's of really skilled paddlers have historically paddled harder to paddle kayaks down hard whitewater, just to make things more challanging. It was a way of pushing the needle.

I don't know what Chuck was paddling when he died, but I don't think it has much to do with the topic. Because Chuck died paddling the portage section in the Black Canyon, no where anyone should be paddling a play kayak.
I love to dance, but who needs the music- It throws me off.
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Old 10-29-2013   #15
alta, Utah
Join Date: May 2004
Posts: 121
I don't recall what boat Chuck was in either. May have been a squirt boat. I suffer from loosening of associations when impaired. Most of my posts vary in relevance to the OP...especially the ones made after about 4:22 in the afternoon. It was a long time ago but, I recall talking boat design with Chan Z when I picked up a replacement boat for my destroyed Cruise Control. Remember Chan? 100mph w/ hair on fire talking about reinforced grab loops, displacement hulls, ergonomics, and getting rid of "ram caps"..."fuck the ram caps" he would say.
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Old 10-29-2013   #16
Denver / Coloma / Monterey, CO / CA
Paddling Since: 1971
Join Date: Dec 2008
Posts: 119
Stern volume and draft

I agree with everything Don says except one small quible (please note that I think Don is very knowledgable about boats and paddling and I almost always defer to his extensive knowledge and skills).

The volume in the stern does not effect how high the boat floats in the water (draft). That is determined by the displacement of the boat, which is the weight of the boat (including paddler and gear) in relation to the surface area and shape that sits in the water. The boat could be 4" tall or 4' tall, and could have 50 or 500 gallons of air in it and, as long as all other things were equal, it will have the same draft.

Where volume comes into play is when force (water = weight = force) is placed on the deck, thereby increasing the downward pressure. The more volume (trapped air), the more resistance to being pushed under the water. The shape of the deck (peaked, flat, concave) then determines how the downward flowing water sheds off the deck.

To summarize, the deck volume and shape only come into play when there is force placed on them from above their natural water line. This can occur from water falling on the deck (ex: the curtain of a pourover) or a weight shift in the boat (ex: the bow being lifted as the kayak climbs the backwash of the hole, or the paddler going into the dreaded "back seat" position).

As noted by other posters, both designs, bulbous (Nomad) or shallow (Remix), have benefits and drawbacks. Pick the appropriate boat for how you tend to paddle. Hope this was helpful.

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