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Old 02-19-2008   #21
Join Date: Aug 2006
Posts: 41
Originally Posted by btt View Post
Now,combine that with my 33 yrs in the manufacture/retail sales/servicing(thus recycling,long before it became chic),of outdoor hard goods,outdoor electronics,and consumer electronics.
So, if I’m doing the math right btt, you’re pushing 50 if you’re not already there. And in all that time, no one ever pulled you aside and said, “Hey, btt, if you’re going to stand up for your ideals by writing and persuading people, you might want to write something that’s actually coherent.”

I guess you’re going for that “stream of consciousness” style but I’ve got news for you - you’re no Jack Kerouac. Dude, I think you need to lay off the weed. To paraphrase Dean Wormer: “Stoned and stupid is no way to go through life, son.”

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Old 02-19-2008   #22
caspermike's Avatar
Bozeman, Montana
Paddling Since: 1999
Join Date: Mar 2007
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Originally Posted by boatnbike View Post
So, if I’m doing the math right btt, you’re pushing 50 if you’re not already there. And in all that time, no one ever pulled you aside and said, “Hey, btt, if you’re going to stand up for your ideals by writing and persuading people, you might want to write something that’s actually coherent.”

I guess you’re going for that “stream of consciousness” style but I’ve got news for you - you’re no Jack Kerouac. Dude, I think you need to lay off the weed. To paraphrase Dean Wormer: “Stoned and stupid is no way to go through life, son.”
i don't think its the weed, i would know. more like he can't take responsibility for his actions so he's finding ways to blame others.

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Old 02-19-2008   #23
caverdan's Avatar
C. Springs, Colorado
Join Date: Aug 2004
Posts: 1,443
BTT......I find your rants entertaining and I agree with about all of it. You make some good points and your english is a hell of a lot better than some of the mexican I run into on a daily basis.......but then again.........I flunked english 101 some time in the 70's. Kids are smarter these days you know.......just lacking wisdom is all.
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Old 02-19-2008   #24
TakemetotheRiver's Avatar
Durango, Colorado
Paddling Since: 05
Join Date: Oct 2007
Posts: 1,477
Does anyone find this post as hilarious as I do?
Irony: when the opposite of what is expected happens; or when the opposite of what is said is meant; or when the audience knows more than the characters involved

Originally Posted by caspermike View Post
i don't think its the weed, i would know. more like he can't take responsibility for his actions so he's finding ways to blame others.
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Old 02-19-2008   #25
Join Date: Mar 2005
Posts: 155
Originally Posted by deepstroke View Post
No, Alanis, It isn't ironic.
What I love about that song is that nothing in the hook line is actually ironic, it all sucks, but is not relating to the use of words to express something other than and especially the opposite of the literal meaning (TT how'z zat fer Engles uno-zero-uno?), they all just suck.

So is Alanis actually smart enough to have the fact that the song contains no irony be the irony of the song. That's so meta.

boatnbike- how do you know he isn't fat and drunk? Giving some special credence to canabis consumption? Let un not dilute the verbiage of Harold Ramis & Douglas Kenney
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Old 02-20-2008   #26
Salida, Colorado
Paddling Since: 1999
Join Date: Jun 2007
Posts: 21
It amazes me how many of you are more concerned about bashing this guys grammar oppose to addressing the subject! Sure, he could have applied a bit more elementary language arts but back to the point……………..
btt, you are addressing a few different issues in your post…. I will try to respond to them all with out writing a book……. if gear companies out sourcing bothers you than I suggest you start saving your money now, and ordering your gear a year in advance if you want it American made by a reputable company with that 'American quality'…………………………….. The fact that companies outsource over seas is a simple one……. To produce the gear that people in the states wants for a price that people in the states want to pay you only have like one choice: open up a factory in china and hire some kiddies to work 14 hours a day! I do not necessarily agree with outsourcing but at the same time I know I cannot afford to pay the thousands of dollars it would cost for some of my gear to be made in the states (Economics 101)! If you want your gear to be affordable and produced in a timely manner, it has got to be made in a country with no labor laws! As far as these companies sponsoring events in summit, Vail, etc.…. I do not get what the problem is with that? This is an example of the companies you are bitching about giving back to the people that use their gear, and in so, they are bringing $$$ (and paying some taxes) to the communities that see their gear (they sponsor more events than just the CO ones, if there was the same amount of biz in IO as CO, these companies would sponsor events there too)! Now I could go on for days on this issue- some advice though: if you disagree with these companies practice do not buy from them and do not attend their events. Just like the Wal-Mart haters, you all bitch and bitch and bitch about how Wal-Mart is the enemy but than you go there for TP or tooth paste because it is cheaper, what happened to supporting the local store where TP is like $5 a roll? Though I would like to see some of my favorite American companies prosper and stay (Icelantic, Shredder, etc) I will still appreciate the sell out’s sponsorships and events (K2)………………………

PS- if you have a problem with foreign money being spent in your community, Summit / Vail / Boulder (any American mountain range) may not be the place for you…………..
'College is a refuge from hasty judgment.'
-Robert Frost[/FONT]
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Old 02-20-2008   #27
Join Date: Jul 2006
Posts: 71
this is a test and only a test.....

i know my opinion is not shared,with many(or if any),and i'd be a lightning rod,for the thought police on the buzz,but here i go,on a final note.thank you all for proving that you can tell me all about the "price" of an item,all day long,but cant tell me about the "costs"----up front,hidden,and long term,for one second,of that item.that your professed concern about indigenous peoples,pure air/water/land,wise use of resources,etc.,is shallow,and goes only as deep as the label youre wearing,at the moment.that you dont have the historical perspective,to know that products,formerly made/serviced stateside,had no corresponding drop in price,when unbolted from here,and set up there,thereby decreasing the sharing of the economic pie(trickle down theory,anyone?);destabilizing our communities;the costs associated with that;and then having those same companies returning to suckle at the taxpayers teet.that your "eco-retailer" isnt just filling his dumpster,with your returns,instead of seeking ways to keep it out of landfills(putting it shrink-wrapped,on pallets,and selling it off on the "wholesale lots" section,of ebay is only delaying the trip to the dump,and doesnt address the problem long term,either).that you can label someone a "walmart hater"(at least theyre upfront,about how they'll steamroll anyone,on their way to a buck),w/o looking at the impact of your own buying habits,and exploring the local options available,because its more "convenient" for you to have perceived "one stop shopping".please dont tell me you actually believe that their "lower cost","brand-labeled" food,is from making better deals,with the american farmer/processor;turn it over,and try to find which country(and think for a moment,of the corners that are cut,to bring it to you,at that price) it came from,not just who distributed/marketed it;but i digress....

that all you can do is throw your hands in the air and hide behind "...im only one person.what can i possibily do?..."---im glad sir edmund hillary,gandhi,mother theresa,MLK,etc.,didnt pull that cop out.i presented some very basic ideas,on how to throw the american people,in your community,an occasional bone,to improve their economy/landscape immediately(no need to wait for congress/the president to act,because they wont),w/o denying you your "right" to buy the 95% of goods,produced in the golden triangle,that line all the shelves of every store.i compare the hundreds of billions pulled out of the US,every year,and the amount spent on these "bread and circuses"(some folks wanted me to compare
those to the mindless rallies of the third reich,where everyone was on the same page/hero worship mode,but i felt that was truly over the top....),to the early 20th century industrialists,who amased their fortunes,at any cost,and gave away pennies in the street,for the same PR spin.i see this as a style over substance issue,on the merits of saying youre/the label you adore,are "eco-friendly",w/o stepping back and looking at all the impacts created.its a real bitch to "walk the walk,talk the talk" with eco-ethics,w/o just paying lip service to it. and even though you despise my pulling back the curtain,and shining a small light on the darkside,of the outdoor industry,i would still respect your input,to the debate,around my campfire,and i would put all negativity aside and even pull your soaked/shivering ass,from a bad river accident,the next day.can you say the same?
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Old 02-20-2008   #28
Electric-Mayhem's Avatar
Lakewood, Colorado
Paddling Since: 1993
Join Date: Jan 2004
Posts: 436
But you didn't five any ideas on how to do anything beyond just to buy American products. Thats neither original nor practical in many cases.

Let me ask you this, since you say no one here is willing to walk the walk, does that include yourself? If the gear that everyone else paddles with is from an evil, multinational corporate that exploits the under aged masses of third world countries, what do you use that allows you to be saying these things without being a complete Hypocrit.

The reality is that most of the gear that Paddlers use are not made in sweat shops. Boats are primarily made in either the States or Europe, the Major paddle companies make everything in house, and I would say even a large amount of the clothing from the major paddle sports companies are made in house too. The only time I see them outsource is when they don't have the technology to create it, and for the volume required, its not worth purchasing it.

The truth is, none of the major paddle sports equipment providers are even big companies. Watermark and Confluence (Dagger and Wavesport) were the only two, and they are nearly out of the business these days. For the rest like Palm UK, IR, Kokatat, Wener, Lendal, and many others, its about the love of the sport. Astral Buoyancy outsources to Mexico, but they go to the factory regularly and specifically found a place that treats their employees ethically.

So, in my estimation, the paddle sports industry really isn't that bad, especially compared to major casual clothing companies like Nike and such. I'd criticize people more for what they wear off the river then what they wear on it(or the mountain or whatever). Its really really hard to find clothing these days that isn't made somewhere else.

Lastly, I don't think there is a person on here who would hesitate to go boating, camping or whatever with you, not to mention provide help in a nasty situation on the river, based on your thoughts in this matter. Its not like you are saying anything any of us have 1) Heard before and 2) Haven't thought ourselves. Nothing you are saying is your own idea, and there really isn't a curtain covering this in any way.

Oh, and I would like to see how you go beyond "paying lip service" when it comes to eco-ethics. Its even more BS when it comes to doing so on a internet forum, and not putting your name, where you are from, or any form of contact.


p.s. Oh, and I do realize I am being a hypocrite in this, since I said in a previous post that we shouldn't rise to his trolling, but I am bored and also curious. Hope it doesn't kill my cat. -JH

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