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Old 06-02-2008   #21
Join Date: May 2005
Posts: 116

The stretch of river that this incident happened on is very different from the delta/whitewater section. This section has many splits and strainers in it. Many times it is uncertain which fork to take and there could be 2-4 choices around any given bend. And with the high water things could change overnight. Lots of decision making and blind corners.

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Old 06-02-2008   #22
pnw, Washington
Join Date: Oct 2003
Posts: 3,404
This happens every year. You are talking about people losing their lives and basing your posts on rumors and sketchy reports. We all have an opinion but I think on a thread about someone losing their life that you should post responsibly and think how you would feel if a family member were to read it. It has happened many times over the years where their were some serious hard feelings. There is quite a bit of BS and slinging of poo on this website and thats all good but there is a time and place for everything and this is not the time or the place. RESPECT, say it with me. condolences to family and friends.

"Yesterday I was clever and tried to change the world. Today I am wise and try to change myself." -Rumi
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Old 06-02-2008   #23
Fort Collins, CO Summer Paddling Since: 2003
Join Date: Jul 2004
Posts: 42
3 out of 4 without LIFEJACKET

Looks like there has been four deaths this year, three of the people did not have life-jackets on. I wonder if they knew the dangers of a river, especially without a life-jacket on. What's wrong with people wearing seat-belts? Whats wrong with people wearing life jackets. I repeat myself.... there needs to be a law that covers life jacket safety in a boat. Why do people have to take a hunter education course but not a whitewater education coursE? ASK YOURSELF THIS, WERE DID YOU LEARN RESPECT FOR THE RIVER? AND WHY IS IT NATURAL SELECTION IF SOMEONE DOES NOT KNOW HOW DANGEROUS A RIVER IS??? SEEMS LIKE BULLSHIT TO ME.
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Old 06-02-2008   #24
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Buena Vista, Colorado
Paddling Since: 93
Join Date: Feb 2008
Posts: 844
I do not mean any disrespect for the family, it is a tragedy and a loss of life is always a sad time for those involved.

I will take back my Natural Selection call. The incident does not meet the technical aspects to be considered natural selection.

Too many people take river safety like lake safety. One can fall off a boat in a warm lake and easily get back in the boat. River safety, especially at spring run off is a non-forgiving mistress. The cold water saps your strength and the current will pull you down with out flotation. I know this is not news to most the people on here, but if just one newbie reads this and decides to wear a PFD on some easy class II, we will have maybe saved someone. I have survived swims through keeper holes that would of killed me if I did not have my pfd on. Looking back on my younger days I am amazed I did not die. Here is to hoping we all make it through big water this year.
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Old 06-03-2008   #25
Boulder, Colorado
Paddling Since: 2001
Join Date: May 2006
Posts: 212
Originally Posted by Justin S. View Post
Second- unless there was another incident this weekend, this guy went to church with my boss. Any remarks about alcohol or any other wrong doing can be taken back. As my boss is pretty hurt by it, and told me about the guy, well needless to say he was a man of God. He might have made an error in judgement but by no means was he being reckless. I don't know details, was just told about how he lived his life (the only really important thing there is to know).
Sincere question here. What are you saying? I interpret this to mean that because he was a man of God he could do no wrong. I can't help but think of all the priests that molested little boys. I'm sorry but in today's world being a man of God means nothing when it comes to good values and responsibility.

This discussion has nothing to do with God my friend. It has to do with knowing how to be responsible on the river.
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Old 06-03-2008   #26
Land of Lovin, Colorado
Paddling Since: 2006
Join Date: Jun 2007
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Originally Posted by BrownTrout View Post
I repeat myself.... there needs to be a law that covers life jacket safety in a boat. Why do people have to take a hunter education course but not a whitewater education coursE? ASK YOURSELF THIS, WERE DID YOU LEARN RESPECT FOR THE RIVER? AND WHY IS IT NATURAL SELECTION IF SOMEONE DOES NOT KNOW HOW DANGEROUS A RIVER IS??? SEEMS LIKE BULLSHIT TO ME.
I personally learned respect for the river/water at a drainage ditch, it was completely dry and I happened by when it had literally just been turned on. I could see it pushing all this garbage along and hear the huge concrete chunks bouncing along the bottom. Poudre Falls at very low water is an enlightening experience as well.

I disagree with the life-jacket law, you have to go to hunter safety so you don't kill OTHER people not yourself.
Seat-belts and PFD's are common sense, if people make the choice to push their luck and not wear one it's no different than someone who makes constant small decisions that can kill them like smoking, being an alcoholic or drug addict.

It's called FREEDOM OF CHOICE, don't try to turn our country into a communist dictatorship run by folks who "know" what's best for everyone.
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Old 06-03-2008   #27
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Durango, Colorado
Paddling Since: 05
Join Date: Oct 2007
Posts: 1,477
I would rarely advocate adding laws for anything, but some laws are helpful.
1. What's wrong with a law requiring PFD's if those of us who are informed all agree that one should be worn at all times?
2. Cataract Canyon for one does require a PFD to be worn in the 17 miles past the Danger sign.
3.Originally, policing the people and creating laws was designed to PROTECT AND SERVE, not ruin anyone's fun.
4. I spent my whole life on rivers rafting, tubing, and duckying without a PFD until I did guide school 4 years ago. I only wore one when wakeboarding. Nothing ever happened to me or anyone I know and not technically being part of the boating community, I never considered it a big deal. Now I always wear one, even on flat water (since I'm usually drunk then).
Bottom line: A law would provide education to those who don't know; would protect and serve them; and would not change what the rest of us do anyway.
Even with the argument that one law leads to more laws, this law could be a necessary evil.
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Old 06-03-2008   #28
Self-Aggrandizing jackass
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The Ranch, Colorado
Paddling Since: 04
Join Date: May 2005
Posts: 1,134
Laws that are in practice, unenforceable, are futile.
We have laws that require a pfd for each member of a boat, yet people still get on rivers without them.

There's no practical difference to a law that requires you to wear your PFD than the law to have a PFD on the boat. People will still violate it. And die. And the only thing that would change is that we in this forum would say "victim X was stupid and breaking the law." (Not saying this gunnison death had anything to do with stupidity - there's no confirmation that people had no PFDs, so from an AW safety perspective, I can't say anything about that.

Should people who get on rivers be educated? Yeah. Should permits be issued for everything? Maybe. Maybe there should be an educational/testing course to get on rivers the same way there is for drivers' licenses. I agree with TMTTR that educating out the ignorance about the difference between rivers and lakes makes sense.

But these kinds of laws only serve to make law enforcement look like bigger dicks than they are already perceived to be, and to make people angry when their tax lottery number comes up. For that reason, I'm against laws such as these.
"self-aggrandizing jackass" - it says it right on the label
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Old 06-03-2008   #29
Park City, Utah
Paddling Since: 1985
Join Date: Oct 2006
Posts: 700
I would guess theat 1/2 or the rafters and 1/3 of the kayakers on the paddle out of westwater on a typical day don't have vests on. I think anyone throwing out the stupidity card on this one is over stepping. Just a bad decission that cost him his life. It really sucks. I know I have paddled alot of flat water with my skirt unattached and my vest under my butt as a cushion. I need to rethink that.
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Old 06-03-2008   #30
Join Date: Dec 2003
Posts: 206
Originally Posted by BrownTrout View Post
Why do people have to take a hunter education course but not a whitewater education coursE?
Who has to take a hunter education course?

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