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Old 02-12-2007   #21
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Kendo...bad party foul


Your actions suck. I'm not one much on slalom boating, mostly because I don't totally get it. However my 6 yr old son is becoming a slalom boater and he thinks you're a turd (his words, not mine, but I agree whole-heartedly). Even though they were "questionable gates", you should leave well enough alone. City Parks Dept. will handle it. When the real gates go up, try not to mess with them.

And yes, the 2007 North American JO Championships are being held here in Denver, let's respect the effort these kids put into their sport.

These gates were as a test to see how placement would be for a more substantial permanent system.

"The gates were not mid stream and were off to the side. These gates were as a test to see how placement would be for a more substantial permanent system." This is an email I got this morning from a concerned and involved person, so knowing who this came from, I really question the need to have removed the gates at all. Kendo, I don't care if you have paddled 14 yrs, 30 yrs or one day, leave things alone. It was utterly moronic of your friend and you to remove something that was quite frankly, none of your concern. You don't like what I have to say, tough shite.

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Old 02-13-2007   #22
Broomfield, Colorado Paddling Since: 1996
Join Date: Feb 2007
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I will make this brief, for the moment.
Thank you to all who pointed out the lack of respect and the vandalism of public property at Confluence.
I did not place these 5 gates in the Confluence channel as I am working on getting permanent fixtures with a pulley system and other things in place to make it less attractive to VANDALS, like the two poor decision makers (I want to insert more aggressive language here but will refrain...for now). I want to be one that figures out how to allow all groups to come together and help grow our sport and it's possibilities.

I think that WE as boaters need to start looking at the big picture. We are loosing the chill aspect of the foundations of the sport.

Two things immediately come to mind that we need to create a better awareness as a culture:

Respect and River Stewardship.

Respect is simple.... if someone has gear laying down on the river bank and leaves in error.... post that the gear is lost. Don't try to post it for sale on Craigslist or other places. (yes... I have witnessed this happening).... or tearing down gates in an eddy.

Stewardship is multi-tiered. We are being looked at by the City of Denver and other folks about who we are as a sport and sub culture.
Taking care of our resources and environment in which we are in within ta river corridor. Whether that means not speeding down a dirt road on the way to a put in, to offend the people that own the surrounding land or to perhaps just say :"HI" and "SMILE" as a play boater or non play boaters sits in an eddy next to you. So lets call this a courtesy to eliminate fancy words.

If people continue to see a trend for this unfair and greed based boaters pulling into our put ins tossing butts on the ground and leaving beer cans... ass cheeks out in the open at Golden for families to see.... tearing down slalom gates in an eddy.

These are items that can be easily fixed and help give our sport a better face.

Right now, Kendo, you are the face that is ruining our sport.

Thanks to everyone that had that had positive comments about everyone on the river getting along.

I happen to be a play C1, slalom C1, Wildwater C1, Sprint C1 and a guy that brings many people to these areas to enjoy what we have to people from all over the world.

Oh by the way... there will be a big event this summer in Confluence and Golden <> that Confluence kayaks and I have partnered in on hosting. I want to be sure that this event is the reason new people will become involved with paddle sport, increase the resources to our local amenities and improve the knowledge of all sorts of whitewater and flat water sport in canoes and kayaks.

So, Kendo, if you do not like what I have to say, I highly encourage you and your buddy to confront me... US slalom boaters directly.
In our hopes to increase training opportunities in Denver, we will be sure that more gates are available in many different areas.

If gates are placed in eddies out of the way of flow and river features I feel that is all we can do. If something is in your way...... SLIDE IT AWAY FROM YOUR PATH... DO NOT RIP THE THING DOWN.

I will do all I can to be sure that the gates are never in the path of a feature or mid-stream if we are not on it.

Many people all over the planet deal with these things daily... I would expect it from fisherman... not other boaters.

Lets work together!


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Old 02-13-2007   #23
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That wasn't very brief...but you had me right up until talking smack about "ass cheeks out in the open". I've said it before and I'll say it again:

Public nudity is as much a part of boating as public urination.

I'm pretty sure this predates you, unless you've been boating long enough to have purchased the works of William Nealy when they came out-- the bible and its supporting volumes. I haven't even been alive that long, for the record, but I study these masterpieces pseudo-religiously. It's difficult to dispute that he was (and remains posthumously) the formost authority on the sport and subculture of kayaking and I'm sure he would agree with my above statement. He would probably roll over in his grave if he heard a fellow boater berating others for shooting the moon.

If families are around kayakers, they should expect to see some ass cheeks. They'll be lucky if they don't get full frontal cock'n'balls. Maybe we should post signs, but you can't change this simple fact of life and boating any more than you can the fact that the music on the radio is awful.

And you know this...maaaannn.
I hope in the future Americans are thought of as a warlike, vicious people, because I bet a lot of high schools would pick "Americans" as their mascot. -Jack Handy
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Old 02-13-2007   #24
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I don't get it...Why would the slomon boaters build gates right over a place where people frequently play boat. Or why did they not realize they would be putting other people out with the placement of their gates, and spend a little more time when they made the gates in question and make them easer to move. How hard is it to make one or two gate slide out of the way so this doesn't become an issue.

Think about who actually put man made obstructions in the river channel, vs. who just showed up to boat in the rivers natural coorador. Would you put a couple of ski race gate in the middle of a superpipe and make such a stink when they get pulled by a couple riders.

Slomon gate guys .YOU put that stuff above the river and you guys need to be more sensitive about your project. Maybe you need to spend more time understanding and developing your project, or understanding the impact of what you do. Not jumping down peoples throats when you've cause people problem with your gates.

If you would have made those things slide out of the way in the first place none of this would be an issue. Right!?! I don't condone the actions of the playboaters but any lack of respect comes from the people who didn't think about others needs when they decided to string up a bunch of stuff in the first place. You guys need to work on you PR.
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Old 02-13-2007   #25
Broomfield, Colorado Paddling Since: 1996
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Bastard Son of Elvis is Right.....

Thanks, Man... no the posting above was not brief...
I have to admit that, for the most part, sure ... I have provided the ass shots, but in Golden and in Denver we need to be mindful of our audience.

Sure... Sir Neely had it to a tee... Yes public nudity and urination are part of the subculture. But those who are in charge of decision making in Golden and Denver are less than humored (park and play).
I have been told that we will loose all funding to future improvements if continual complaints happen there. The people, specifically of Golden are just tired of ass shots, not to mention cock and balls dangling.

So in ending... lets save the public urination, cock and balls or shooting the moon to wild river runs when no one else is around.

Damn .. I am getting too conservative in my old years. Sorry ....
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Old 02-13-2007   #26
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Spank...use the spell check

Slalom, slalom, slalom...spell it correctly. FYI, when those drops were engineered many eons ago, probably before some of you were born, they had gates on them (circa 1981, 1982). This was before the era of park'n'play and butt plastic.

Secondly, a little piece of PVC pipe slapping you in the helmet once or twice might be annoying, but it won't hurt you or kill you while you slop around in a hole. I use the word slop, because most tricks in playboating are in fact repeated mistakes that look cool.

Slalom takes precision paddling to a level few playboaters comprehend. That being said, you're probably going to see more gates put up down there in the coming months. If they're put up correctly, you can bet the slalom boaters will have the courtesy of either taking down their gates at the conclusion of practice, or sliding them off to the side.

We never had a problem with it in Durango. There were certain times when the racers were down at Santa Rita Park and if you were running the river or playboating there, you just had to remember to be aware of the gates.
And the Lord said, let there be whitewater. So on Friday, the 13th day of the month....
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Old 02-13-2007   #27
Broomfield, Colorado Paddling Since: 1996
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Hey Spank....
I stated that the gates were moved out of the way when we were not using them (moved to the side and not in the channel of flow) .
I did not place these gates and would have done things much differently if I had done it, but someone threw them up without communicating with the general group of users.

We are trying to propose with the City of Denver a few things:
1.Allow wires and gates to rise out of reach when not in use by installing riverside poles that allow for elevation when not in use (no disturbance to the non slalom folks when not being used)
2. Keeping the poles so that they blend in and are not colored and numbered when a race is not happening.
3. Riverside poles and wires will be difficult to "play" with by local vandals when the gates are risen.

I want the best for all users, but it does take time. We are a young program in the area and I want to see the best features for all users involved in the river corridor.

How about instead of everyone bitching about the other... lets put a think tank of all users out there and find solutions rather than this silly bickering.

No one group is better than another and we need to find a way to respect the differences and needs.
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Old 02-13-2007   #28
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Loop back


If the poles were permenently put in, with basically a V configuration. The cable could be anchored on to two points in the island side, and simply looped through a single pole on the shore side. I think it might discourage the cable thieves if they realize they'd have to get out onto the island or conversely, if they cut it, it just falls into the river and gets pused out to the island. I sent you a JPEG of the idea
And the Lord said, let there be whitewater. So on Friday, the 13th day of the month....
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Old 02-13-2007   #29
Broomfield, Colorado Paddling Since: 1996
Join Date: Feb 2007
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Structure for Poles

The structure that I proposed to the City of Denver is:

3 poles 14 feet high by 6" in diameter to be concreted into place of the existing caissons in the center island. 1 1" braided cable will run the length of the island shore.
The same would be done on the river right shore ending at the confluence of Cherry Creek.
Again, another line of 1" braided high tensity cable would be strung.

We can then string many lines across the river n typical 18 gauge wire for the gates to hang from.
We will have a system similar to the Charlotte center and Dickerson Center in Maryland where gates can be raised and lowered by a tension slider. This will allow the gates to be raised out of reach when not in use and only adjusted from the river left island. The approx height from the river would be 6 feet, which is higher than ANY boater can reach from in the water or rafter passing by.

The gates would be maintained by my group and an attempt to help control maintenance and upgrades. The city would only oversee that I am doing what we had agreed upon when signing the contract.

There will be two primary goals of the facility:
1 Increasing the presence of Olympic Level Slalom Development and Racing within Denver

2. Instruction of Denver City Canoe and Kayak programs (done by Confluence kayaks and FRPA) for all socio economics. We will receive grants from the City and private funding to make this happen.
groups profiting from our instruction and awareness programs
-Underprivileged youth
-battered women and strength personal development for women
-Wounded Warrior programs (military rehabilitation)
-programs for other disabled youth and adults
-programs for Olympic development slalom and freestyle (yes... freestyle may eventually be an Olympic sport)

So ... all in all... Confluence and Golden will become a major hub in multi discipline paddle programs for EVERYONE. But we need to build the facilities to make this happen fairly and openly.

I am tired of hearing Charlotte and Western Maryland.. etc...
I travel all over the world to help with programs and know that damn it... we can make it work here.

Sorry... More long wind...
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Old 02-13-2007   #30
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we need a perm. whitewater training site

how much did charlotte cost to build?

And the Lord said, let there be whitewater. So on Friday, the 13th day of the month....
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