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Old 12-17-2010   #21
Join Date: Sep 2006
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Originally Posted by The Mogur View Post
I strongly suggest that all of you who hate Big Oil just stop using it. If you don't like the lifestyle that depends on "Big Corporations," move to the third world hell hole of your choice and become a primitive.
WOW, the ultimate capitalist putdown, "if you don't like the shit we have to sell you, get the fuck out of OUR country.

Sure glad there are still some people willing to stand up to the corporate powers.

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Old 12-17-2010   #22
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Originally Posted by The Mogur View Post
And yes, there is a specific reason I defend the oil companies. It is because I buy their products with hypocricy. The lifestyle I choose is supported by the people who bring the products I want to the marketplace at a price I am willing to pay.
As a supposed river runner, I am amazed that you are not willing to pay an extra few pennies a gallon to protect a wonderful river corridor.

The corportions have you right where they want you...good luck with "that lifestyle you choose".

Sorry, but your last post was so pathetic, it has taken me three posts to respond.

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Old 12-18-2010   #23
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billings, Montana
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Mogur, large loads are necessary in this day and age, this is an undisputed fact. They do not necessarily need to be shipped on this particular river corridor. There is much public sentiment to that effect. The affected companies can and will afford to ship them elsewhere to their destinations if they are made to. (with the understanding that the cost will be passed to the end consumer anyway) Many, including myself, are not willing to take the word of those who promote their own interests to endanger something so irreplaceable. This is neither an irrational or emotional response, but common sense. I mean this in the most benign way, with respect to your engineering expertise. I hope that you see where many are coming from.
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Old 12-18-2010   #24
Costa Mesa, California
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Mogur reminds me of the homeless people walking around yelling irrational thoughts. No matter how logical you are he screams Big Oil Big Oil! Why do you hate Big Oil! While you're thinking to your self...I didn't say anything about Big Oil.

haha. Comedy hour in here.
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Old 12-18-2010   #25
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Hoback Nation, Wyoming
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How many "Big Hauls" are we talking about? One?, Ten?, A hundred? Who gets to make the final decision?

I used to work the oil patch, but don't tell my mother. She thought I was a piano player in a cat house.
"Each mile on a river will take you further from home than a hundred miles on a road"
Bob Marshall
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Old 12-18-2010   #26
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Originally Posted by catboatkeith View Post
I used to work the oil patch, but don't tell my mother. She thought I was a piano player in a cat house.
Awesome! Best post in the thread!
You can never step into the same river; for new waters are always flowing on to you. - Heraclitus of Ephesus
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Old 12-18-2010   #27
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Originally Posted by catboatkeith View Post
How many "Big Hauls" are we talking about? One?, Ten?, A hundred? Who gets to make the final decision?

I used to work the oil patch, but don't tell my mother. She thought I was a piano player in a cat house.

Take a look at the one of the oppositions websites, .

Lots of evidence that this will become a permanent "industrial corridor".
Most of the equipment needed for the Alberta oil fields is manufactured in Alberta or the Great Lakes Region. But "Big Oil" can buy cheaper by out sourcing to Korea, Vietnam and China. The cost of developing the "wide and high" corridor only makes sense it spread out over the long term.

One of the oil companies (Imperial Oil) stated that they outscourced to Korea because it was a better "total value". Apparently, the tourism and recreational value of Idaho and Montana were not put into the equation.
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Old 12-18-2010   #28
Woodland Park, Colorado
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External Costs

My apologies if I have missed a post on this already.

If you need more logic addressed to this issue one way to look at it through external costs. These are cost(or benefits) that are not transmitted to the customer. The classic example is destruction or pollution of air or waterways.

You could look at these costs being taken on by the local communities that support recreation and recreation businesses (outfitters, hotels, restaurants, etc.) that are supported by this natural area. The loss of tourism dollars due to one summer (300-600 big hauls) can affect tourism dollars for several years afterwards. The effect of these costs are typically not passed onto the consumer and then in turn given back to the community.

Another idea you can look at is the intrinsic value that can be placed on a scenic area. This is one area that has baffled people/business/government for time on end. How do you place a value on an area that people(tourism) value for being itself in terms of scenic recreation. This is difficult to put dollar value. For an extreme case you could look at what the cost/benefit of placing a powerplant in a area of the grand canyon that could be seen from viewpoints.
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Old 12-18-2010   #29
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Originally Posted by Rich View Post
Here's 20 reasons that I oppose the big haul, that have nothing to do with big oil.

At last! Someone finally got away from emotional hysteria and came up with the REAL reasons this is a bad idea. A bonus for Rich!

To all the rest of you, take notes. Base your argument on sound, documentable facts. Don't try to win support by denigrating some abstract evil entity you call Big Oil. That just shows you to be ignorant, shallow and hypocritical; and in the end you will destroy your own argument and alienate people who might otherwise have supported your cause (unless, of course, your real cause is to destroy Big Oil).

There really are valid reasons to kill the mega-hauls on this highway, and Rich stated 20 of them. A couple of other writers in this thread (and others) have stated good reasons related to safety, road damage, and traffic obstruction, but have muddled their message by attacking Big Oil and evil Corporations instead of focusing on the real, tangible arguments.

Don't show me photos of oil-soaked pelicans and expect me to join a crusade against the mega-haul. I can't sign on to a cause that tries to manipulate ideas through emotion. Give me substance and demonstrate that there is integrity in your approach and validity to your cause.
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Old 12-18-2010   #30
Thronton, Colorado
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These threads are comical to me. A bunch of river rats that think they know everything, coupled with the typical American "it's all about ME" attitude make for some entertaining drivel. OK, maybe not that entertaining.

Go ahead, oopose big oil. Oppose corporate America. Oppose industry. If that's what you stand for, then I expect you to stop driving your car, and get off the highways. Haul your raft or kayak to the river on horseback. Otherwise, you are supporting big oil.

Stop buying manufactured goods, make that shit yourself, by hand. Get out your hand tools, harvest the land. That kayak you haul by horseback to the river better be carved out of a large tree, by hand. Otherwise, you are supporting manufacturing as well.

If you're not willing to stop using the products you are opposing, then you're just bitching....

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