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Old 09-17-2010   #51
Kayak/SUP Instructor
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The High Ground, Colorado
Join Date: Mar 2008
Posts: 1,325
Originally Posted by lhowemt View Post
Nice info, thanks! Now we can all say we've got to train to thicken the myelin along the nerve paths that we use boating. Nah, it's still muscle memory to 99.9% of the population. Even if the term isn't technically correct, it's generally understood by most.
I agree with you and that's why I said "that is what most people are talking about here". Whats going on inside their heads with the roll rarely gets talked about cuz we spend the majority of the students time focusing on the mechanics and the two are inseparable. That's all.

"Let us cross the river to the other side and rest beneath the shade of the trees." ~ Last words of Thomas Jonathan ''Stonewall' Jackson
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Old 09-18-2010   #52
OlyPen, Washington
Join Date: Jul 2010
Posts: 85
Originally Posted by gannon_w View Post
Oyeah "H2uhoh".

I have noticed many lesson descriptions from companies and such says things like "establish muscle memory"...or even worse "practice/repetition will help you develop muscle memory" for kayaking


I think newbs hearing that think that if they get into trouble their muscles will remember what to do and just work as long as they repeted/practiced. Which is not the case. A basic muscle phys, motor control/learning/development class will explain why.

Not smak talking just this is something the general public needs to learn.
What I take the term to mean is a response to a situation that is so quick and confident that the mind is not wasting energy on negative thoughts, such as "I won't make it." This is along the lines of what Theophilus referred to as a subconscious act.

I doubt any adult--newbie or not--takes the term literally. The general public knows that muscle tissue is not brain tissue.

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Old 09-18-2010   #53
Kingston, New York
Join Date: Apr 2007
Posts: 33
Nike is right - just do it

Originally Posted by Theophilus View Post
I think the trick to whitewater rolling is getting the conscious out of the way so the subconscious can get its work done.
For some people that's the hardest part of learning to roll. The mechanics of the roll are the same regardless of what's going on in the river, but too many people, especially when they're beginners, let the river interfere with what they're doing. The river can sometimes make it harder to get into the setup position, but as long as you can do that the rest should happen automatically, without having to think about it.

My suggestion for those who have gotten a pool roll and need to turn it into a reliable combat roll is to just start rolling in water that's a bit more challenging than the pool. Start with gently flowing water, and then progress to modest wave trains, eddy lines and squirrely water. When that's comfortable and reliable find faster water and bigger wave trains. Paddle an easy river and roll at least 100 times. Don't be afraid of trying it in shallow water that's flowing slowly. If you hit a rock remember that you can't hit that rock again (unless you're being windowshaded). Besides flipping in different positions, switch the paddle around. Pass it over the bottom of the boat. Flip it end for end and then roll up with the back side of the "wrong" blade. Besides building muscle memory, all of that practice will give you the confidence to believe your roll will work when you most need it. The first time you need a combat roll in a class 3 rapid you shouldn't have to experience anything you haven't already dealt with while practicing, and you should expect to roll up with no problem.
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Old 09-18-2010   #54
dillon, Colorado
Paddling Since: 2000
Join Date: Feb 2008
Posts: 281
Lol some people take expressions so literally....I hope when someone says the sky is falling you don't actually look up.

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