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Old 06-10-2012   #21
cedar city, Utah
Join Date: Mar 2008
Posts: 1,931
White guilt and etc don't matter....

Sovereignty does....they control the land as they want and we are expected to follow their rules plain and simple.

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Old 06-10-2012   #22
Join Date: Apr 2005
Posts: 115
I may be wrong but I think the land up to Beaver falls is part of the National park.

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Old 06-10-2012   #23
ric's Avatar
Fruita, Colorado
Paddling Since: 1982
Join Date: Apr 2004
Posts: 201
We Shall Remain...

is another great visual correction of US history.
B E S very good, to deep for most....

Entitlement, there's a good topic, pathology ?

I was always told that most land on river left was Tribal lands, from river bank up...
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Old 06-10-2012   #24
briandburns's Avatar
Boise, Idaho
Paddling Since: 1979
Join Date: Jan 2010
Posts: 151
Originally Posted by ric View Post
I was always told that most land on river left was Tribal lands, from river bank up...
I'm no expert on this, but from the NPS reg's, it looks like Hualapai Tribal land extends from river mile 165 to 273, river left, from the historical high water line, not the river bank. Thus, we can camp on river left in this section, but not hike away from the river without a Hualapai permit.

As far as Havasu is concerned, it's at river mile 156.5, and hiking is allowed without a Havasupai tribal permit up Havasu Creek to its confluence with Beaver Creek.
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Old 06-10-2012   #25
cedar city, Utah
Join Date: Mar 2008
Posts: 1,931
The Park Service boundary with Havasupai Tribal Land is
at the Havasu Creek / Beaver Creek confluence. People
planning on hiking upstream (south) of this point are
expected to pay access fees to the Havasupai Tribe. One
can pay these fees in advance or make reservations
within Havasu Campground by calling the Havasupai
Indian Tribe at (92 448-2121 or (92 448-2141.
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Old 06-11-2012   #26
Tahoe City, California
Paddling Since: 2000
Join Date: Jun 2009
Posts: 13
restrac2000 If you call the phone numbers you listed, they will tell you "you are NOT allowed to hike up Havasu". The person that answered the phone did not make it sound like hiking up to Beaver falls was okay either. But I do remember there being a sign that marked the NPS/Havasupai property just before you get to beaver falls. I think the people answering those phone lines are giving the impression that "No you are NOT welcome here" and "No you can NOT pay access fees". And "No you can NOT enter Havasupai Tribal Land unless you come in from the rim side and pay $67. per person per night to camp at a very primitive camp ground".
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Old 06-11-2012   #27
shonuffkayak's Avatar
hutchinson, Kansas
Paddling Since: 2006
Join Date: Feb 2011
Posts: 138
Originally Posted by Fallingup

It is my understanding (correct me if I am wrong) that they are actually American Indians and have ties with the Hopis back in early days. About 600-800 years ago. The feds forced them out of nearly all of their land in this region. They are holding on to what is left and there is just a couple of hundred acres. They had some treaty's but they lost nearly all their land anyway. Not sure how that went down.

No one is asking you to feel "guilty" that our people stole from anyone. History is history. I do not take responsibility for actions my ancestors may have taken and I dont feel guilty. I do feel sorrow and loss for those times.

I agree with you, there are good and bad people in all cultures, races and so on.

But I do have a serious problem with anyone who has a sense of entitlement. Yes, these places are wonderful and beautiful and maybe both parties can find a way to agree on peace. But in my opinion, we are not entitled to anything.
So true and nicely put. I do believe however entitlement issues go both ways. I am a firm believer that this earth was put here for all. I do not agree with the way native americans were treated at all. I believe their way of life was the best model of any society. Having said that I do not believe in ownership nor fences on any land. No one group,person nor government should ever control ones access to the wonders of our world
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Old 06-11-2012   #28
Rez072's Avatar
Moscow, Idaho
Paddling Since: 2006
Join Date: Apr 2008
Posts: 88
Last November we had 6 people hike up to the campground from the river where 4 of them exchanged their spots on the NPS permit with 4 others who hiked in from the top. The other two hiked back down with the 4 new folks. All 10 camped at the Havasu campground for one night, which was also paid for. We had the rest of our crew layover at Tuckup, 6 miles downstream after they tied a boat off for us to meet them with just downstream of the mouth of Havasu at a secret spot.

Most of us had permits (I did). None of the 10 people had any encounters with the native authorities. Seeing Havasu like this is a highlight for sure.

Is the official reason why they are shutting us down because the river hikers aren't paying? Because they can't or won't police the hikers? Why now?
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Old 06-11-2012   #29
Front Range, Colorado
Paddling Since: 2005
Join Date: Oct 2009
Posts: 75
Originally Posted by slavetotheflyrod View Post
Another good read- Empire of the midnight sun.

Cherokees were the ultimate badasses of the native tribes.
The name of the book is Empire of the Summer Moon, and the book is referring to the Comanche tribes, not the Cherokees. Although, as the numbers got fewer and fewer bands and tribes from all over the US began forming together. Yes, the white people did expand west and eliminate most indian tribes, but indians were not the only ones to die. Treaties that were made, were intended to be broken on both sides. Long story short, this book is a great read and a pretty unbiased look at early America.
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Old 06-11-2012   #30
sealion's Avatar
Moab, Utah
Paddling Since: 1987
Join Date: Oct 2008
Posts: 131
I used to take kids in there from the top in the late 80's before the travertine dams got busted out by flash floods. A beautiful place for sure, but as far as conforming to white mans woodsy owl hoo whoo don't pollute mores, the Havasu don't. The yards look like trash, the horses and dogs are underfed, and it was Cash Only for the campground. Travellers checks were frowned upon. I wonder what it took to be the guy who "collected" campground fees in cash...

I'm glad they got claim to their land outside the canyon though. Being a native is tough shit with all the rules we(white guys) throw on them.

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