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Old 10-30-2011   #31
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Eastern Slope, Colorado
Paddling Since: 1980
Join Date: Jun 2007
Posts: 2,403
Raymo, I think Hank Hill and Al Gore would disagree with you. Propane burns very clean, though it's production, bottling, and distribution probably do cause more environmental concern than a fire that you would likely have burning in camp anyway.

I don't see how it's anything like a motor in any of the aspects discussed in this thread though. Could you elaborate?

I'd also like to thank everyone involved in not being "Captain Obvious" and discussing the vast amount of miles typically driven to get to and from a river trip. None of us are carbon / environment neutral in our sport, but this always seems to get brought up and seems to have little bearing on the debate at hand.

Rich, thanks again for your insight. It brings up plenty of food for thought, as I really hadn't considered the pace of river traffic as a whole on that level. I do disagree that the chances of a ban are minute. The Grand Canyon is an ideal candidate for Wilderness and has been in some stage of the process for decades.

If anyone else would like to see this amazing place receive Wilderness designation, for it truly is a wild place, please look to, and consider joining, River Runners for Wilderness. The website is very informative and might just make you think twice about pulling that starter cord next time.

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Old 10-30-2011   #32
Join Date: Feb 2005
Posts: 883

Slamkal, you are right of course to point out in absolute terms, rowing produces less pollution. Relevant factoid: the exhaust ports on most modern four strokes are under water, for that last little bit of noise suppression and absorbsion of exhaust fumes.

Randy, my point wasn't well made. I don't oppose Wilderness designation for the river corridor -- if a bill ever came up, I'd support it. But court-upheld provisions of the Act allow grandfathering of certain activities (like motor use) in Wilderness. Perhaps you don't agree, but I think those provisions surely would be invoked. (I'd be genuinely interested in hearing your reasons for thinking otherwise.) And as a result, motors would continue to go down even under formal Wilderness designation. It would have been a noble crusade that didn't get anti-motor folks what they really wanted.

Fact is, I've argued here and elsewhere that legislative action -- not litigation -- is the way to get Wilderness designation. Sadly though, Randy's observation that this "has been in some stage of the process for decades" says a lot about how difficult things like are in the current era.

Hang in there.

Rich Phillips

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Old 10-30-2011   #33
thornton, Colorado
Paddling Since: 1969
Join Date: Aug 2008
Posts: 600
Originally Posted by raymo View Post
A motor is nothing more than a reconfigured camp stove. Just using energy in a different way. Anyway you look at it someone is going to be pissed off.
I like cooking over a natural firer with wood myself.
Yes Randaddy, I like Hank Hill in "King of the Hill" as a propane salesman in that show. Al Gore's comment, on Texas Governor Rick Perry's administration about human drivern climate change is a hoax, censoring climate science for political reasons does not make sense. What all this has to do with the original post I have not a clue.

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