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Old 03-13-2014   #11
Edmond, Oklahoma
Paddling Since: 1988
Join Date: Dec 2003
Posts: 55

i was so tired after 3 bailey laps in one day. just couldnt imagine commiting to the grand like that. aside from the fact that you just cant lap the grand. could you do it? i would be impressed if you were rearing to go a second lap.

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Old 03-13-2014   #12
lhowemt's Avatar
at my house, Montana
Paddling Since: 2020
Join Date: Apr 2007
Posts: 4,347
Originally Posted by carvedog View Post

I don't get the trying to game the regs.......
Agree. Heytat hit the nail on the head, people trying to game the system are part of why we end up with so many darn regs. If you want to do two laps, do the Dec/Jan thing.

I am a river, babe - I've got plenty of time, I don't know where I'm going, I'm just following the lines..... - "We are water" by Shaye
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Old 03-13-2014   #13
TriBri1's Avatar
Tigard, Oregon
Paddling Since: 1995
Join Date: Nov 2011
Posts: 768
Originally Posted by mikepart View Post
Ok, sorry, that was harsh. But I don't really see the point in racing through the canyon.
Different strokes for different folks. Given the cost and logistics, it does not sound interesting to me on the grand, but there is a strange appeal to saying you put in 50-60 miles a day. The strange kind of satisfaction when you drive from Aspen to Moab and find that your MPG on your rig went from 20 to 35.
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Old 03-13-2014   #14
Horserump, Colorado
Paddling Since: 1975
Join Date: Jan 2006
Posts: 458
turn around at Diamond and paddle back up stream. That way you'll have plenty of time to view the canyon. You could maybe make it back up to Phantom and carry out.
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Old 03-13-2014   #15
GC Guide's Avatar
Flagstaff, Arizona
Paddling Since: 1990
Join Date: Apr 2009
Posts: 520
Lapping the Grand Canyon on a single permit (trip) without exceeding trip length?
Forget about it! (in my best New Jersey accent)
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Old 03-13-2014   #16
San Jose, CA, California
Paddling Since: 1998
Join Date: Apr 2008
Posts: 433
More on grand regulations.

...people trying to game the system are part of why we end up with so many darn regs
No ones trying to rig the system. Simply discuss human created regulations that are flexible and have change markedly over that last 100 years of use and will continue to change over the next 100 years.

On the number of regulations: there are only 29 pages and considering the amount of use the river corridor gets (around 28,000 participants a year) and the vested interest from various groups to protect the commons. I say that while the regulations are not perfect they do a pretty good job at meeting the interests of the majority of users while maximizing the protection of the resource.

Possession of a permit allows the participants one trip between Lees and Diamond, not a maximum number of days in that stretch on multiple laps.
Is there a place where the regulations are explicit on this that I have missed?

...and acting on your interpretation will expose you to criminal prosecution as well as confiscation of your gear and likely being banned from the Canyon for a number of years.
To be clear I have no intent of willfully breaking any NPS law or regulation. Nor to is my intent here to make any declaration to other users to break existing laws.

The purpose of this post is to simply discuss Grand Canyon river regulations.

4. Perhaps the better question is this: Regardless of how you interpret the current regulations. Do you think it is possible for the regulations be changed to accommodate multiple lap style endurance kayak trips without adding any additional environmental impact to the canyon or jeopardizing the experience of existing users?

If you think such a change is impossible what would need to happen to change your mind?
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Old 03-13-2014   #17
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BZN, Montana
Paddling Since: 2008
Join Date: May 2009
Posts: 1,489
Park wouldn't bite on this kind of change. If they were interested in allowing laps at all you would be allowed to participate in multiple trips per year.
The sunshine walked beside her
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Old 03-13-2014   #18
Dipshit with the most.
carvedog's Avatar
Bellevue, Idaho
Paddling Since: 1991
Join Date: May 2005
Posts: 2,496
Originally Posted by buckmanriver View Post
However, it depends on how you define a trip right? For example, what if you did four laps in 25 days in one January trip. I do not think you would be breaking any rules. Assuming, you did four 5 day laps with one rest/drive day in between.

What are your interpretations of what the regulations will allow in trip length? See page 4 of the regulations:

OR Consider this quote from the regulations, "Please note, in calculating
one’s trip length, count the day the trip launches from Lees Ferry, the day the trip reaches Diamond Creek, and all days
between whether the trip is active on the river or not. " I want to interpret the "or not" part of the above sentence as driving shuttle between laps.
I do get what you are saying re: number of river days but it does not matter how you want to interpret it: Ain't gonna happen. In the weirdest of interpretation by the most liberal Park Ranger in the history of Park Rangers.

From page 2, Non Commercial River Trip Requirement, Section B, Item 2, subset ii - Notice big bold letter on One Trip Per Year:

""""ii. One Trip Per Year. All individuals are prohibited from participating on more than one (1) recreational river trip (commercial or non-commercial) per year through any part of the Lees Ferry to Diamond Creek section of the Colorado River. Participation by the Trip Leader/permittee or any other planned member of a group on any prior noncommercial or commercial river trip within the same year will result in that person’s disqualification from all subsequent trips for that year. If the original permittee and all those listed for the trip as Potential Alternate Trip Leaders are disqualified from the trip or cannot go on the trip for any other reasons, the noncommercial trip will be cancelled."""""
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Old 03-13-2014   #19
Las Vegas, Nevada
Paddling Since: 2013
Join Date: Feb 2014
Posts: 97
Yes, Carvedog is correct in his quoting of the Regs. Regardless of how fast, or how many days on your permit, you can only traverse the section of River between Lees and Diamond once in a calendar year. That should be the answer you were looking for. You could, however, lap the hell out of the Diamond down section as long as you have your permit and keep paying the Hualapai's. Though that section of river is pretty tame after 236 mile area.
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Old 03-13-2014   #20
sealion's Avatar
Moab, Utah
Paddling Since: 1987
Join Date: Oct 2008
Posts: 131
Carvedog has it right. ONe time from lees ferry per year. I think the "one trip per year" is pretty clear, unless you want to argue what the meaning of "is" is. Unless you are trolling? But you show up at lees more than once, that's one more than you are allowed for the year. I guarantee the rangers ain't going to let you "lap" on the same permit. They got guns and helicopters to pull you out. They also won't have to "explain" themselves like we are on this forum. Make your life easy, one time through and go again the next year.

I am amazed how easy it is to get a permit these days. the one ttrip a year rule really freed up the canyon from no accounts who had the time to go multiple times a year(never did it myself, but COULD have). My next push will be to bring back the winter 30 day. You want to do some serious hiking, 30 days is the way to go. I see so many trips in winter not using even the full 25 days allotted.

Now, if you want to run illegally, and slip in in the middle of the night and hope you don't see a ranger down there, that's another story. Have at it. but if you get caught, "you'll never run this river again!"

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