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Old 02-11-2013   #21
flagstaff, Arizona
Paddling Since: 89
Join Date: May 2007
Posts: 148
Anchor Rules, Breakout your Juevos Especiales! Ole!

GCNP Rules clearly allows the use of black webbing. No bolts. The Sling is around a temporary chockstone(preferred anchor technique), not a bolt. Drystack piles (for a lack of better words) are legal. Obviously this technique is for rapelling only as a fall would probably precipitate anchor failure.

Your bolting suggestions are illegal Sorry?

There are some old dam spikes(?) drilled into the rock somewhere around Red Wall Cavern?? That would be an awesome linkup for someone with the knowledge, skills and the juevos rancheros. Breakout the avos for a genuine Aztecan Bull fight.

So there was this American Climber that was traveling in Mexico. After weeks of digging through trashcans for food he came across this incredible restaurant beside a bullfighting arena. It was cheap, cheap. Se Vende JUEVOS ESPECIALES. Now if you don't know, Juevos especiales its a mexican specialty and fresh near any Bullfighting arena. Juevos Especiales!! Everyday he ordered the juevos especiales. They were Ginormous! Off breakfast juevos especiales alone he ate lunch and dinner. Everyday he would order the Juevos Especiales. One day after the big climb he traveled to the restaurant and asked the waiter for the Juevos especiales. The waiter said OK Senor, and brought him the smallest little juevos and took his money. The climber looked at his little juevos and grimaced. Waiter?? Everyday I come and get the greatest dish the juevos especiales and I eat for the total dia? But today these paltry juevos??I am so Hungry? What have I done?? THe waiter breathed a deep sigh and said SENOR, Not everyday does the Juevos come from the Bull. Today El Juevos Especiales de Jose!


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Old 02-11-2013   #22
Westminster, Colorado
Paddling Since: 2010
Join Date: Aug 2009
Posts: 286
Brady, provide your source of the fixed gear regulations for GCNP. You seem to be the only one who knows them. Prove it, betcha can't. Because there is no rule. Sorry

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Old 02-12-2013   #23
TriBri1's Avatar
Tigard, Oregon
Paddling Since: 1995
Join Date: Nov 2011
Posts: 768
To move away from "to bolt or not to bolt..." I found this trip report to be a fun read. I think I checked it out before my trip in 2010 as wellm 18 Days in the Grand Canyon - A climbing Trip Report :: SuperTopo Rock Climbing Discussion Topic, It would give you a good idea on what is at river level to be had.

On the "to bolt or not to bolt" grudge match. I have an email out to the park service asking what their official stance is and asked for documentation in their regulations. I'll keep you posted.
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Old 02-12-2013   #24
Westminster, Colorado
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Join Date: Aug 2009
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At the bottom of the page are a couple videos too. The climbing looks pretty sweet!

Video Of Beth Rodden & Tommy Caldwell Climbing In The Grand Canyon | Climbing Narcissist
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Old 02-12-2013   #25
flagstaff, Arizona
Paddling Since: 89
Join Date: May 2007
Posts: 148
NPS in a pretzel hold

Awesome video and photos!. Tommy's trip was specifically catered for climbers. Notice the camping in rocks, etc. Also, most camp chores were prolly handled by the guides, another plus as time is limited. If one wanted to do any extensive climbing (which I would be one), it would prolly work best if the whole trips was made up of climbers. Not your typical rivertrip.

Not trying to get in a grudge match, just the facts here Friday. People have been busted for bolts in the Canyon in the past. Sounds like someones doing the homework, so that will work out there

Last year a climber decided to rappel the Deer Creek Falls and got his rope stuck. Instead of taking care of his problem he just left it Canyoneers heard of the arrant rope and ran in to remove it. The rivertrip was fined, and Deer Creek Narrows was closed for good. So now no one will be able to visit that area again We should prolly be more careful and respectful of the area so more closures don't occur? It's good that someones checking with the park to clear up the rules because we wouldn't want to bring more restrictions than there already are?

Reminds me of Rocket the Climbing Rassler. There once was this wrestling coach PE teacher. Every year Coach gets beat by the rival school. This year it looks like there will be no change The coach has gone over it and over it. He was sure to lose by a match. While sulking one day in gym class he sees Rocket climbing the rock wall. He is amazing. One handed pull ups, two finger monkey swings HE IS STRONG! and physically smart. He can master any problem. Suddenly the coach has an idea! Rocket should wrestle. For weeks Coach trains Rocket for the big match. Now Rocket, Your wrestler Luigi is an exchange student from Italy, and he only has one move, but he is really good at it. He as pinned everyone with his one move. THE PRETZEL! If you can stay out of the Pretzel you will surely win. OK Coach. Well after days of practicing staying out of the Pretzel he gets to the big match, and Luigi and Rocket are the last match. It's tied. The match begins. For two periods Rocket is winning, he is too strong for the pretzel, and the coach is amazed. Finally after all these years we are going to win he tells the manager. In the next second Luigi has contorted his body around ROcket and he has Rocket in the tightest Pretzel anyone has ever seen A great sigh goes over the stands. Just when the Referee is about to slam the mat, a wrestler gives out a yell and all of a sudden Rocket jumps out on top and Pins Luigi the undefeated wrestler. The stands go crazy, and ROcket is showered with praise. Between all of the texting, and girls phone #'s being passed to Rocket the Coach asks Rocket, how did you do it? How did you get out of the Pretzel? You must tell me! Well coach, I was in the pretzel thinking I'm done, what can I do? when I saw these testicles right in front of my face? So I bit them as hard as I can!?! What?? Coach asked? You bit your opponents balls? That's not legal! Uh... no coach.. I didn't do anything illegal. I bit my own balls!! You would be amazed at what you can do when someone bites his own balls!!

If I win? you have to bite your own bean bags? Hee hee

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Old 02-12-2013   #26
lhowemt's Avatar
at my house, Montana
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Perhaps the person to contact is Rich Rudow regarding not just the rules but the philosophy of the ethics in the park regarding anchors and bolts. The webbing is only slightly contentious, and bolting outright scorned if not disallowed. At least he could give a "locals" viewpoint of someone who is a leader in group of people favoring descending the canyon on 400' rappel's from webbing anchors. He can be messaged from the gcpba yahoo group.
I am a river, babe - I've got plenty of time, I don't know where I'm going, I'm just following the lines..... - "We are water" by Shaye
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Old 02-12-2013   #27
Westminster, Colorado
Paddling Since: 2010
Join Date: Aug 2009
Posts: 286
I appreciate everyone's advice on this topic. I will await TriBri's reply. It appears to me that GCNP does not even have a climbing management plan in place. Why, you might ask? Because nobody really climbs in the Grand Canyon. So the park service does not feel the need to put regulations in place. As of right now there really is no need for one. I like how blown out of proportion this thread has got. It's pretty simple to find the fixed gear regulation on the NPS website for every other NP. Usually the climbing management plan for bolting looks like this:

Bolting Policy & New Routes - Yosemite National Park

Black Canyon of the Gunnison

Arches National Park
Rock Climbing - Arches National Park

Mount Rushmore National Park
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Old 02-12-2013   #28
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Up North, Oregon
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Not that I am in favor of bolting in the Grand Canyon, but I have put up long multipitch routes in other areas (mixed routes with bolts in wilderness). I have even put up a couple routes in the Main Salmon River Canyon, leaving some fixed pins to rap. In all of these cases no one but a climber would have a chance of even noticing any fixed gear what so ever. It is very possible to leave fixed gear that is camoflouged and that would go complete unoticed by anyone not looking to repeat the route.

For example, the giant wall below has several hundred hundred bolts on it (all done by hand drill) with several routes from 8 to near 20 pitches long, and no body but a climber would have a chance of ever seeing them let alone make it to the base of this wall, even though a hiking trail passes within about 1 mile of the base (as the crow flies). It is in a wilderness.

Here is another crag. There are fixed rap anchors at the top, it is in a wilderness, can you see the anchors, are they offensive?
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Old 02-12-2013   #29
River Gypsy
Swannanoa, North Carolina
Paddling Since: 1986
Join Date: Jan 2004
Posts: 255
Here are some more thoughts on this.

First, I don't think the management plan has that much bearing. Just because something is not expressly forbidden by law doesn't mean you should do it.

Relating to the quality of rock in the Canyon - I've spent a lot of time in there: 23 days on a river trip, 5 different week-long backpacking/canyoneering trips, and another 26 day backpacking/canyoneering trip. I took shoes with me on all trips, and on all but one of the backpacking trips we had ropes and small trad racks. What you find with regard to quality of rock is mostly that the water eroded surfaces along the river itself and on the lower walls of the side canyons have the best rock. No matter which formation, all of the wind eroded surfaces tend to be pretty crumbly (with a very few exceptions). What this means is that most of the decent climbing is by nature pretty much right where most of the people travel, and the place you would most likely leave a bolt to rap because the rock gets crappy is about 50-60 feet off the deck in plain view of where many people are having the most remote wilderness experience of their lives. That is the main reason why I don't think it's appropriate to take a bolt drill on a river trip in GCNP.

As far as gear goes, active cams are king down there. I have rarely (if ever) found a nut placement that I was super stoked about because even the water eroded rocks are crumbly. In fact, I tend to go as close to over-camming my placements as possible because in most cases the rock will grind off to some degree and the cracks widen when you weight them.

Because the really solid rock generally only extends 50-60 feet off the deck in the canyon (I'd say that Caldwell article somewhat backs that up), your best bet is to enjoy bouldering and perhaps some climbing in the context of canyoneering in the slot canyons.

The best way to climb in the GC is to hike in from the top and then drop into the slots. That way you can leave your gear and fixed ropes, attempt to climb back up, and ascend your fixed lines if that doesn't work and take your gear with you, leaving no trace.
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Old 02-12-2013   #30
Beaverton, Oregon
Paddling Since: 2005
Join Date: Jun 2010
Posts: 569
I'm staying out of the anchoring debate, but we brought climbing gear on our canyon trip a couple of years ago, mostly as a safety item. We broke it out for a layover day at a camp on river right at mile 216. That camp backed into a 50-60' wall with a perch, and an easy walk around to the top to build an anchor around to the right. It was a grand old time.

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