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Old 09-09-2005   #1
Join Date: Oct 2003
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Go f*ck yourself, Mr. Cheney...

Yeah, OK... So it's not paddling. But how appropriate.

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Old 09-09-2005   #2
Mike Harvey's Avatar
Salida, Colorado
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I saw this on the Daily Show last night and I almost pissed my pants I was laughing so hard. He had just told the interviewer how warm a reception he had recieved in New Orleans...priceless.

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Old 09-09-2005   #3
pnw, Washington
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thanks i needed that
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Old 09-09-2005   #4
WhiteLightning's Avatar
Eagle County, Colorado
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That's pretty funny.

As usual, everyone is quick to blame the president and federal government for everything. Seems like the local gov dropped the ball on this one. I was forwarded the pasted e-mail below, along with this picture. The picture is pretty amazing, and I searched on it and confirmed it is legit. These busses were meant to be used for the initial local government evacuation of New Orleans. Check this out:

OK, here's the forward. Sorry if I offend anyone. I'm not very political, but you can't really argue with where this guy is going:

Last week in this space, I wrote how I was disappointed in George W.

to some degree, for being a bit behind the curve in providing federal
assistance to New Orleans. While some of this sentiment remains, I am

away at how over the top certain elements of the Democratic left and the
MSM are taking this. Furthermore, as a rational human being, I am able
to amend opinions based upon facts - many of these facts only became
known to me by watching the news and reading articles over the long
weekend. Here's what I found.

Here's Ten Things you perhaps did not know, that might make you think
differently about exactly who is "at fault" for "all of this." (Two
overly-general, and constantly thrown around terms I've heard all week.)

1. In the case of Katrina, there was huge fleet of school buses the
mayor could have dispatched to aid in evacuating people unable to leave
on their own. Instead, the buses sat in parking lots that later flooded,
making them

unusable when tens of thousands were stranded in the flooded city.

2. One of the primary reasons why the National Guard did not arrive

was the fact that the Governor (Katherine "Cry, Cry, For Us.." Blanco)
HAD TO ASK for the troops from the federal government, and that she
refused at first, fearing that it would "complicate" the security
situation on the

ground. Contrary to popular belief, the President does NOT command the
National Guard in any state. State governors do. Until she authorizes
the Guard to be "federalized" they can't do anything at the behest of
the president. Such niggling details.

3. Though the city's crime rate is ten times the national average, U.S.

news outlets downplayed the connection between New Orleans' outsized
criminal element and delays in rescue efforts. Even as murder rates
continued to decline in other cities in recent years, the murder rate in
New Orleans crept up. The police were plagued by allegations of
corruption and brutality, and, according to The Associated Press, only
had ''3.14 officers per 1,000 residents - less than half the rate in
Washington, D.C.''

4. Though the U.N.'s own top official for disaster relief has called
Katrina one of "the largest, most destructive natural disasters ever,"
shamefully only a handful of nations - at last count just 25 nations of

191 countries in the United Nations - have come forward to offer

5. Guess who IMPLORED Governor Kleenex to issue a rare MANDATORY

of the city BEFORE the Hurricane struck, saving tens of thousands of

That's right, the Dunce In Chief, George W. Bush.

6. The same guy who Kanye West claims "doesn't care about black people"

more black people in higher positions of authority in his cabinet than

Clinton had in two terms. Pesky facts.

7. Despite a modest cut in funding to the Army Corp. of Engineers and
the levee projects in New Orleans, the Corps admitted last week that the
two levees which failed were both complete and in "good condition" and
not part

of the levees that were targeted for improvement.

8. I love how people say that Bush should have "known this was coming"
and done more to avert it. Well sure, I suppose, but how about the f'ing
Mayor and Governor taking a beating first? Go to and read
about the
5-Part series written by the Times Picayune in 2002 (FIVE PARTS!) that
basically laid out this disaster in shockingly accurate detail well in
advance. How about the fact that the city and its leaders learned almost
NOTHING from what was a dress-rehearsal last summer on Hurricane Ivan.

lesser hurricane Georges in 1998 did a lot of flooding damage in parts
of the city. But yeah, it's Bush's fault.

9. No matter how long it took for rescue buses to arrive, how can you
combat the off-the-charts ignorance of the following snippet from a news
article. When asked if he was glad to see rescue workers finally arrive,
a man said: "Hell no, I'm not glad to see them. They should have been
here days ago. I ain't glad to see 'em. I'll be glad when 100 buses show
up," said 46-year-old Michael Levy, whose words were echoed by those
around him yelling, "Hell, yeah! Hell yeah!" "We've been sleeping on the
.. ground like rats," Levy said. "I say burn this whole ... city down.".
REACT: Why yes indeed, burn that sucker down! And then we'll blame
George W. Bush!

10. In the end, some 100,000 estimated people were evacuated from a
major metropolitan city that was 80% flooded with toxic waters. All
told, there will be far less than the ESTIMATED 10,000 to 25,000 deaths
predicted by government agencies in their simulated "models" of a Cat 4
or 5 hurricane hitting New Orleans on the nose. This was done under the
strain of a hostile criminal element in the city that went unchecked by
local police. This was done under the strain of a mayor and governor
that made both critical mistakes in the early hours of the crisis.

Do I think we could have done better? Sure. But what exactly would have

been "par" for such an unprecedented, dangerous, and complicated
evacuation? Three days? Two? BOTTOM LINE IS THAT AS AMERICANS, OUR TWO
president to unleash a fleet of magic red carpets to somehow whisk away
an entire inner-city in time for our re-runs of "Friends" at 7 p.m. We
have the arrogance to believe that nothing bad should ever happen to
America, and that such calamity only happens to "other countries."

Here's my challenge to any critic, or any other nation talking shit
about "how can America not take care of its own refugees better than
this. I'll challenge any other country, or any other administration with
the following.

Pick a large, mostly poor, urban city and flood it with water to 80%.
Knockout all power, all telephone communication (land line and cell),
and water. Make sure that hundreds of city owned emergency vehicles like
ambulances and fire engines are stranded in waist deep water. Take out
several key bridges leading into the city. Make sure that you have no
good place to put the 100,000 people you are taking out of the city,
except for one place that holds about 20,000. Make sure that place is
350 miles away. Make sure your hardened criminal/drug element of the
city has free reign to

loot and terrorize in the first 48 hours. Be sure to remember that this

same element will murder cops, shoot at firemen, and even try to shoot

relief helicopters. Set some buildings on fire and a chemical plant,
just to make it interesting. Then set daytime temperature to 93 degrees


Okay, you've got everything in place, ready to go? You've got a thousand

more buses, all staffed with qualified drivers, all of them with a full

tank of gas, and all of them with the necessary police escort to keep
from getting hijacked once in the city? Good. Now, you've got the
National Guard

all ready, prepared to swoop into the flooded city and restore "order"
even though the minute one of them shoots a gun-toting looter beating up

old woman in a wheelchair, there will be a national outcry the likes
that has never been heard? Make sure that a considerable amount of the
people left in the city, are refusing to leave, saying they have nowhere
else to go.

Good. Get started. I'll sit here with my stopwatch, and see how quick
and smoothly it will go with perfect "preparation" for such an enormous

The biggest disgrace in all of this, is that there are THOUSANDS of true
heroes doing unbelievable work, and they are being completely ignored by
the "instant media blame game" and the utterly inflammatory
"professional race-baiters." There are helicopter pilots flying nonstop
in dangerous conditions. Doctors keeping people alive by
hand-ventilating them for a

week. Police trying to keep a city in chaos from completely imploding.
Average citizens, wading through a hellish soup of toxins and dangers to
pull fellow citizens to safety. If you read enough on the web, and see
enough photos like I have, you'll see lots of whites helping blacks and

blacks helping whites.

While I believe that last week was not our country's finest hour, it was
certainly not our worst. We did the best we could, given human
imperfections and less than flawless local leadership. Thousands

their time, money, and sometimes lives to help others. And while the
first response will be debated for a long time, I am confident that the
follow through efforts this week, the next, and many weeks after that
will showcase America's better qualities. Money will be offered
generously. Homes will be opened to those who are

displaced. Care will be given by those who know how. Let the critics and
cynics say what they want. Those who matter in this relief effort, are
probably too busy helping out to even care.

Mike Sheckels
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Old 09-09-2005   #5
Front Range, Colorado
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In defense of the city of New Orleans (and at the risk of becoming part of a political firestorm that may very well be simmering on this thread).....

I don't know how many folks here hail from hurricane-plagued regions, but by its very nature, hurricanes are unpredicatable and chart their own courses-- if anything, folks on this page know the water, they know mother nature... and they know the two together cannot be taken for granted OR expected to behave in any sort of conventional manner from day-to-day. A class V storm headed straight for Tampa/ St. Pete can change course suddenly and arrive at the Yucatan peninsula a Class II storm 5 days later... or the inverse may also be true. It's impractical to suggest "oh, the mayor should've moved the fleet of buses" when a) there was no guarantee NO would take a direct hit, b) there were no gurantees *where* the storm would finally come ashore, c) initially, it looked like the city escaped Katrina largely unscathed. Unless the mayor and governor were running a direct line to Madame Cleo, no one could've possibly foreseen the disaster that ended up taking place in Louisiana. Why would you issue an order to move a fleet of busses and have them on standby in Baton Rouge for evacuation purposes when, at first, it didn't look as if there was any reason to evacuate??

And, on the part of the federal government, cases like the attached just go to show that someone, somewhere, dropped the ball. It's unfortunate a private businessman or corporate entity can pull off what state, local, and yes, even *federal* government agencies (FEMA, anyone? and what's up with this new round of info from Time magazine's investigative reporters, who've "unearthed" the fact Michael Brown, the Bush-appointed director of FEMA-- and coincidentally, college roommate of former-FEMA chair Joe Allbaugh-- not only fudged parts of his resume, but has NO disaster or emergency-related experience??) cannot:

Planning and Private Resources At Hospital Giant HCA Made Rescue Operation Possible
September 7, 2005; Page B1
As New Orleans emergency services struggled last week, giant hospital company HCA Inc. ran a rescue operation that airlifted some 200 patients and 1,200 staff members with 20 helicopters it managed to find and hire.
The Nashville, Tenn., company cobbled together a rescue for patients and staff at Tulane University Hospital and Clinic, a facility that it owns and that was badly hit by Hurricane Katrina. HCA flew in amateur ham-radio operators, including two from the Tallahassee Amateur Radio Club to prevent midair accidents.
"We used ham radios to create a makeshift air-traffic control system," says Ed Jones, a vice president of supply chain operations at HCA, noting that there wasn't a single chopper mishap.
HCA's evacuation of critically ill patients in the midst of poor flying conditions, no electricity, weak phone links and frequent sniper fire stands out among rescue operations in New Orleans in the aftermath of the hurricane. It throws into relief a corresponding failure of the public-rescue system: No such operation occurred across the street, at state-run Charity Hospital.
Indeed, HCA helped rescue up to 50 patients from Charity, many of whom were critically ill. Although HCA's own patients and employees were in peril, the company's ability to launch and execute a rescue shows how advance planning and private resources gave HCA and its patients a far different experience than those at Charity and other public hospitals.
"We were unable to get any governmental help in evacuating," says Norman McSwain, a professor of surgery at Tulane and trauma director at Charity, who worked at both hospitals throughout the crisis. Two evacuated patients, both from Charity, didn't make it.
The evacuation was the result of bold decisions by senior executives in the heat of the moment, coupled with some careful advance groundwork. Last fall, top brass from HCA and its hospitals met at the Hyatt Hotel in Orlando, Fla., for a "Hurricane Lessons Learned" meeting. Three hurricanes had roared through Florida over the previous months, and HCA, whose 190 hospitals and 91 outpatient surgery centers are concentrated in the Southeast, wanted to better protect its facilities.
Some key gaps HCA identified: Cellphones often fail, so alternative phone systems are needed. Roads become impassable, so emergency supplies have to be stored closer to hospitals. Backup generators are vital for cooling lab and diagnostic equipment, especially in summer, when hurricanes tend to strike.
In the following months, HCA provided its hospitals with satellite phones, hurricane shutters and additional backup generators. It also struck deals with local businesses -- refrigeration and water companies, diesel and gasoline retailers -- to provide supplies quickly in the event of an emergency. In areas where hurricanes were likely to strike, it also began to move food, medical supplies and other gear to warehouses closer to hospitals.
When Katrina struck last week on Monday, Tulane Hospital initially withstood the onslaught. But as some levees collapsed, water began to seep into the hospital. By seven the next morning, senior HCA executives had gathered in the company's Nashville boardroom, which would become their command-and-control center for the rest of the week.
The group realized they would need to lease about 20 helicopters for the evacuation of patients and staff, a move HCA had never before made on such a scale. Jack Bovender, Jr., the company's chairman and chief executive, didn't hesitate. "Get them," he said, according to Mr. Jones.
HCA employees leased a motley collection of helicopters, including a privately owned Blackhawk belonging to firefighters in Ocala, Fla., and a Russian-made machine from a land developer in Panama City, Fla. Soon after, HCA's makeshift fleet was ferrying critically ill patients from the parking lot at Tulane Hospital to other facilities.
It was tough going. Two Tulane patients each weighed more than 400 pounds, and one heart patient awaiting a transplant was strapped to 500 pounds of equipment. The elevators were dead, so medics carried patients up several flights of stairs. At night, the helicopter landing zone was illuminated by the headlights of cars parked in the garage.
Things were far worse at Charity Hospital, where patients and staff were subsisting on canned fruit cocktail and a dwindling supply of water. Eventually, Charity patients were ferried to Tulane in boats and evacuated by HCA helicopters. Dr. McSwain says he counted 254 evacuated patients, from both Charity and Tulane. An additional 1,400 people, including staff and patients' family members, were taken out. "I don't know where to lay the responsibility," says Dr. McSwain. "All I know is we were left without help. And we got our own help."
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Old 09-09-2005   #6
pnw, Washington
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Honestly people, are we so PC that we cant take a shot at the VP? Dont confuse the issue with facts. It was funny, wished I would have said it.
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Old 09-09-2005   #7
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Eagle County, Colorado
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I agree, it was funny...I said that before!

I also agree that a bunch of people f'ed up in the response effort.

I also agree that a natural disaster is just that, a natural disaster, an unfortunate series of events that destroy whole cities and people's lives on a huge magnitude.

That weekend I was going on a hut trip. They said the the hurricane might hit New Orleans in a couple of days. Everyone knows New Orleans is under sea level and uses pumps and levys to keep water out. I thought, well time for everyone to get the hell out of New Orleans! 2 days later, I came back and the storm was about to hit, it has become a category V storm, and everyone is still there! All I'm saying is that it was a big nasty hurricane flooding a city that sits near the water below sea level. I don't think that it was George Bush and Dick Cheney who screwed things up. A whole lot of people were sitting around with their thumbs in their asses waiting for someone to tell them what to do.

That's just my take on things. And, I'm originally from the east cost, and have been in hurricanes, by the way.

In general, I think politics are boring and monday morning quarterbacking is a waste of time.

Newby, how is the paddling in TN these days? You are on the ocoee, right? I don't think I've been on it, or if I was maybe as a little kid on a raft trip. What is the river like out there?
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Old 09-09-2005   #8
Front Range, Colorado
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gh --
had I been in NO or MS that day, I'm afraid I would've had to shake the "F**k you, Cheney!" guy's hand... either that, or agree to yell right along with him at the *next* press conference, too!

No PC-ness here.... just someone who grew up on the coast and echos dude's sentiments exactly--

I'm right there with ya' on the east coast factor! If there's one thing that has to be said about people who live on the ocean, it's either that they're the most stubborn-- or most insane-- bunch of individuals you'll ever collect in one place (other than this webpage, of course). Everyone just assumes they've seen one hurricane and lived to tell about it, they'll see 100 more and they'll always be the same, everyone will come out on the other side alive and with only a few shingles blown away or windows shattered to show for it. I grew up in Mobile, AL (my early, early years), so I've been aparty (or at that time, more of an audience!) to a number of those "should we stay or should we go" (bet you have a song stuck in your head now! :P ) conversations when the storms were en route myself.
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Old 09-09-2005   #9
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WL, you should work for fox news! I say that because your facts seem to be a little off and you sound like a republican puppet.

Here's an excerpt from an article in the Philly Daily News, which quoted mostly the Times Picayune and NO CityBusiness as it's sources...

"In early 2004, as the cost of the conflict in Iraq soared, President Bush proposed spending less than 20 percent of what the Corps said was needed for Lake Pontchartrain, according to this Feb. 16, 2004, article, in New Orleans CityBusiness:

"The $750 million Lake Pontchartrain and Vicinity Hurricane Protection project is another major Corps project, which remains about 20% incomplete due to lack of funds, said Al Naomi, project manager. That project consists of building up levees and protection for pumping stations on the east bank of the Mississippi River in Orleans, St. Bernard, St. Charles and Jefferson parishes. The Lake Pontchartrain project is slated to receive $3.9 million in the president's 2005 budget. Naomi said about $20 million¬*was needed to continue the projects."

Yet after 2003, the flow of federal dollars toward SELA (Southeast Louisiana Urban Flood Control Project) dropped to a trickle. The Army Corps of Engineers never tried to hide the fact that the spending pressures of the war in Iraq, as well as homeland security -- coming at the same time as federal tax cuts -- was the reason for the strain. At least nine articles in the Times-Picayune from 2004 and 2005 specifically cite the cost of Iraq as a reason for the lack of hurricane¬*and flood control dollars."

Yeah...the tax cut for the rich and the war for god knows why. Anybody ever wondered why we pulled Saddam out of his spider hole in a few months yet the seven foot tall arab dude that is responsible for everything in the first place is still dragging his dialysis machine around the mountains?
I hope in the future Americans are thought of as a warlike, vicious people, because I bet a lot of high schools would pick "Americans" as their mascot. -Jack Handy
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Old 09-09-2005   #10
Front Range, Colorado
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WL - The Ocoee is the Ocoee, I guess! LOL I actually live NE of the river, but we road trip down every wknd or so.... water quality's not dandy (lots of old abandoned copper mines, so every piece of gear that touches water, mud, or sludge stains orangey-brown), but then again, we have like, NO EPA standards in TN anyway....

I don't have enough (read: ANY) experience paddling in you guys' region to compare it to anything there, but it's solid III/ III+ stuff (broken up by shorter stretches II+/III boogie water in lieu of the flat stuff)-- it's pretty shallow and rocky (not enough to make it shoaly, though) and you prob don't want to spend too much time upside down anywhere other than the major features. However, if you're interested in a riverbed topo report from Double Suck, Double Trouble, or Tablesaw, or in swimming conditions around those three rapids (esp near the ends of them), I may *very well* be your go-to person there.

I think it's like most places: since it's dam-controlled, it's reliable, and we get a little burnt out on it (disclaimer: I've only recently moved up to running the III+ crap on the Ocoee, so I'm not as burned out as others). Now that we're at the end of the season on most rivers (I guess we're lucky we have more dam-controlled water (and more winter options) than many areas) though, it's where you'll find most folks on the wknds.

You should definitely come try it out sometime! You guys out west have us beat on higher-class, big volume stuff (i.e. real rivers), but if you're up for a change of scenery, or have any interest at all in hair boating/ risking your neck creeking, it'd be more than worth the trip.

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