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Old 05-22-2006   #31
kayakArkansas's Avatar
In this bullshit three-ring circus sideshow of freaks, Arkansas
Paddling Since: 1986
Join Date: May 2004
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Great song....great band....great discussion....sorry I have nothing productive to add, however, it definitely gives a gent something to ponder.......although....I am very surprised to see a debate of this magnitude going on in a paddling forum during the spring runoff....what with all those beautiful looking flows on the Ark that I am unable to enjoy for ANOTHER MONTH

--Zach W

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Old 05-22-2006   #32
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Thought-criminal, Colorado
Paddling Since: 2000
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Posts: 989
Here here for the plague idea. Bring on the bird flu. With our incredibly exercised immune systems, only boaters will be left. Then the discussion will center on which dead neighbor's car are we going to drive after the last dead neighbor's car runs out of gas a la The Omega Man. After that we'll build a new civilization based on river travel and riverside bike paths.

Chuck Heston may be a lunatic now, but he sure was damn good back in the day.

Correlation's a damn good place to start. If it looks like a duck, walks like a duck and quacks like a duck you only need to sequence so many genes before you can conclude it is indeed a duck.

I hope in the future Americans are thought of as a warlike, vicious people, because I bet a lot of high schools would pick "Americans" as their mascot. -Jack Handy
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Old 05-22-2006   #33
Golden, Colorado
Join Date: Mar 2004
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I pulled hydrogen out of my ass. I know nothing about alternative energy. And, yes, small efforts now like driving a Prius sure don't hurt. But if it is true that we are changing the climate then getting 60 mpg instead of 20 mpg isn't going to reverse it. It is going to take a complete switch to a different source of energy. And trying to convince people that we are causing global warming isn't going to do that. The vast majority of people outside of forums like this wouldn't care even if there was definitive proof. They won't care till it hits them in the wallet.

So what will cause a change? If alternative energy will be the most lucrative invention since the automobile as Richter said, why hasn't there been more progress? Personally I think the incentive isn't there yet but is getting close (thus the small strides like hybrid vehicles... theres a market developing for them now.) And when true money is to be made, technology will, once again, come to the rescue. Until then, the Prius just doesn't cut it as a shuttle rig. (But buying one surely helps send the message to the corporations that we'll give you our money if you come up with the solution. )
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Old 05-22-2006   #34
Edwards, Colorado
Paddling Since: 2001
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yes, there's a global warming trend.

yes, man has contributed.

but to what extent is simply not known and is still under major debate among scientists. we are talking about an extremely complex system here of which we are still gathering data. more research is still needed to understand the effects of water vapor, for example, which actually is the greatest contributor to the greenhouse effect, more so than CO2.

and regarding alternative energy sources, don't think that these will solve all our current problems without creating new ones. basic scientific principles tell us that there's no such thing as free energy (2nd law of thermo) so there will always be waste. we're all familiar with the undesireable effects of nuclear waste, but what about ethanol? we already have a growing aggricultural problem with fertilizers and pesticides. and even if we do invent a totally electric car, realize that about 70% of the energy that went into making the electricity needed to power this car was lost in the form of heat at the power plant.
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Old 05-23-2006   #35
Join Date: May 2004
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Hmmm. I'm surprised so many people still think there is a question on whether humans are causing serious global warming. That's worthwhile info. I guess the mountain of data and model analysis doesn't produce a smoking gun people can relate to.

Does this convince people better than Al Gore?
Evangelical Leaders Join Global Warming Initiative

Despite opposition from some of their colleagues, 86 evangelical Christian leaders have decided to back a major initiative to fight global warming, saying "millions of people could die in this century because of climate change, most of them our poorest global neighbors."

"For most of us, until recently this has not been treated as a pressing issue or major priority," the statement said. "Indeed, many of us have required considerable convincing before becoming persuaded that climate change is a real problem and that it ought to matter to us as Christians. But now we have seen and heard enough."
On what to do, I see several approaches:
1) Encourage more fuel efficient cars and houses.
2) Create a carbon market where people buy the right to put CO2 in the air. Start with a cheap price, but increase it gradually over 10-20 years. One easy thing to do is pump the CO2 that a coal plant produces back into the ground. This isn't that expensive and there are enough depleted oil reservoirs to make this possible. It may increase electricity costs 10%.
3) Pursue nuclear energy more. New designs show ways of making conventional fission safe and reasonably priced. And we can put as much money as the Japanese and Europeans are spending to develop new hydrogen fusion, which is totally safe and produces nearly no radioactive waste.
4) More ethanol & wind as previous posters said

I'm sure there are other reasonable things that can be done.

By the way, I work in the oil industry.
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Old 05-23-2006   #36
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Reverse global warming with clean and renewable energy.... hydroelectric!
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Old 05-23-2006   #37
Join Date: Mar 2004
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Originally Posted by Caspian
'Nuff respect, Routter.

Also, regarding the water out here, there is a significant body of thought that attributes the current water shortages to the possibility that the Compact was negotiated based on a 100 year average flow study that happened during an unusually wet period. In other words, it means that the reason there is not enough water in the Colroado to meet everyone's agreed rights is because everyone mistakenly thought that there was a lot more water in the river on average than there really is historically.

The book Cadillac Desert was required reading for a class I had at Western State (Gunnison - 1993). According to the book (pp. 128-129), it states, "1905, 1906 and 1907 were some of the wettest years in the Colorado Basin's history." In 1907, according to the book, "the river sent a record twenty-five million acre-feet - eight quadrillion gallons - to the gulf."

Keep in mind, folks, that the Colorado River Storage Compact (someone please correct me if I'm wrong) hasn't been adjusted much since it was first enacted to accomodate the energy usage we see today. Hydroelectricity was introduced before the age of internet, not to mention the growing number of baby boomers moving from colder climates to places like AZ to take up golfing.
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Old 05-23-2006   #38
Join Date: Aug 2004
Posts: 498
To you on the Right of this issue I say. Common Sense the first casualty of Partisain Politics. To you on the left. Just becuse you produce a small percentage less of co2 emmisions does not make you part of the solution. Same argument diffrent people 0 accomplished. sj

yakgirl. The 1927 colorado river compact has not been adjusted flow wise leaving about a 3mil af sortage anually. this has not been a real issue due to lack of storage capacity. sj
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Old 05-23-2006   #39
Denver, Colorado
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I think this guy has it figured out.
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Old 05-23-2006   #40
Join Date: Dec 2003
Posts: 71
Those who think that our climate does not change on its own natural cycles are wrong. In medieval times, there was a cooling trend that killed by the tens of thousands in Europe. Our best guess is that the Maya civilization was destroyed by a drought that coincided with their downfall. These trends lasted only decades, and were not the result of the industrial revolution. We will never know just how many examples of this there are throughout history. If our earth is warming up, we are far from proving that humans have any role to play. Look at the ozone layer. After the big stink made, we figured out that the hole was a natual fluctuation and that our impact was negligible. I'm with Routter, I think that human ego leads us to believe that we have a larger impact than we really do. The earth will go on being the earth long after we have vanquished, and we can't do much about the bigger picture. At the end of the day, humans will have been but a pimple on an elephant's ass.

And for those who think that there is a scientific consensus, read here about the upcoming mini ice age that is forcasted:
Believe me, National Geographic is not a consevative institution.

None of this changes the fact that we need to be good guests of our planet. But not for our planet's sake, for ours. Our need for a healthy, clean environment is tantamount to our healthy existence. Our natural areas provide experiences for those willing to partake that cannot be replaced or substituted. And, on a more practical note, they provide the ecosystems on which human populations depend.

So can we render a small portion of the earth uninhabitable? Absolutely. Can we change the climate of earth? Very doubtful.

"Government is like a baby: An alimentary canal with a big appetite at
one end and no sense of responsibility at the other."

- Ronald Reagan
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