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Old 05-22-2006   #21
Join Date: Jun 2005
Posts: 13
I have to say I'm glad to see that there are some differing opinions on this topic as that is what helps us understand more about something. As global warming and its effects are far from solid empirical proofs I think it is important to continue to discuss. Doomsday predictions like the recent Al Gore articles really accomplish nothing except disseminate false information. However, to ignore the the issue is equally irresponsible.
I do find it amusing that some people claim to be able to predict the weather outcomes secondary to global warming when we have enough trouble predicting the correct weather for the rest of the week. Scientists can't even agree whether there actually is an overall increase in temperatures. Signs of increase may just be due to the centralization of humans as more and more people move out of rural areas and into the cities, a trend which has been well studied.
I believe Router made the most correct point in saying that a temperature increase in the last decade or even in the last century is miniscule in comparison to the age of the earth. Flucuations have occurred since the formation of earth (the ice age for example) and it is impossible to say that any temp change is not just another global fluctuation, even if the timing is correct with the age of industrialization.
Since there are many points to be made I would like to make one that has not been discussed. No matter out belief in global warming or not, it is unethical for us to demand that other less-developed countries be held to pollution reductions that countries like the US and Europe embrace. It costs industry billions of dollars to conform to these standards and in a country where the economy does not have the monetary luxuries we have it stifles and restricts their ability to grow, particularly since the answer for much of our non-pollution tactics is to move it off-shore, an arrangement that benefits for parties economically. It's not right to say, we got our and now you can't have yours, in the sense that we polluted and grew but now won't allow others to do the same. We in essence promote world poverty. Discuss.

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Old 05-22-2006   #22
Join Date: Apr 2004
Posts: 254

routter -

one could certainly be manipulated by the corporate world, but not know it, even with degrees in the sciences.

others posting above are correct, IMO - by stating that proving any of this is a tough challenge (either way), and following the logic that you can't prove it, so it isn't worth the effort is NOT valid.

i do disagree with your contention that the scientific community has not come to concencus on this issue. I have found in my experience that when talking to the actual scientists who work on this issue, they are very much in agreement that what we are currently seeing is most likely a man made phenomena that will have and IS having significant impacts on life here on earth. i suggest that you enroll in some graduate courses at CSM - i think they have one called "environmental global change" from the engineering department.

i also disagree with the idea of moving to electric cars, as we currently generate some 70% of electricity from burning coal, and the corresponding emissions of CO2. not to mention the waste of transfering the electricity and inescapable inefficiency.

finally, i think it is weird that you want to convince people of your thinking, basically that it is a complex problem and you are not convinced (argument already stated above). i think that if you become more educated on the science, you will become convinced.

also, it is offensive to me that you use the term "liberal guilt" - as a reason why people think this is man made. perhaps your "conservative inner voice" tells you that it is too complex, so why deal? this is so not a partisan issue. drought and rapid global change will affect everyone the same. it is really sad that the pro-corporate right wingers have shunned this topic as false, without an understanding of the facts, and re-evaluating as new evidence is uncovered. this issue is really too big to be labeled as left or right. wake up.

i think that stiff and johny water have the right ideas.

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Old 05-22-2006   #23
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Denver, Colorado
Join Date: Jan 2004
Posts: 679
How long do you think it took cavemen to realize shitting upstream was a bad idea? They didn't wait until the invention of the microscope. Is global warming a good time to utilize "reasonable doubt" or "innocent until proven guilty?" Depends on who you ask.

So... In the last 13,000 years, has there been one instance where mankind has decreased it's use of natural resources? Probably not. I think it is inevitable that we will plunder our planet until there is nothing left. I think some people have come to terms with that and are racing to get their chunk. Others think technology will come to the rescue. Most of the world's population believes they get to go somewhere else when they die so who really needs the Earth.

People are generally idiots. The only thing that will slow it down is a good old fashioned plague.

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Old 05-22-2006   #24
Golden, Colorado
Join Date: Mar 2004
Posts: 1,012
Mom please flush it all away.
I wanna see it go right in and down.
Watch you flush it all awaaaaaaaaay.

Originally Posted by Livingston
The only thing that will slow it down is a good old fashioned plague.
True. If we are the cause of it, driving a Pirus isn't going to fix it. Getting industry to get behind developing a car that runs on hydrogen will. And the only thing that will do that is if gas costs $25 per gallon or if Mom flushes it all away first.
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Old 05-22-2006   #25
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Denver, Colorado
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A Bumper sticker I saw at a bar near a gold mine in CO, the kind of mine where they move mountains and leach the gold out over acres of big plastic sheets.


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Old 05-22-2006   #26
Metro Area, Colorado
Join Date: May 2005
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I second the Tool references...great song.
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Old 05-22-2006   #27
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Geologist, Colorado
Paddling Since: 1991
Join Date: Oct 2003
Posts: 583
Electric cars are not the answer? Well at least it's a push in the right direction. But for the record, you don't plug a hybrid into the wall. It charges its battery as the wheels turn. Oil is still burned but as the engine runs on gas or coasts, it charges the battery.

Also, with developing hydrogen power, check this out. I already posted it once before, but if you missed it....

Check this as well...long videos but short download time.
Click on the right picture.

I don't know what the implications are of splitting water into HHO gas but if the water is not recoverable, at least we can limit how high the seas will rise after global warming takes over (this was a joke).
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Old 05-22-2006   #28
Join Date: Mar 2004
Posts: 148
Okey-dokey. I see plenty of the same points being made here that I've heard over and over, none of which are too convincing. My brief rebuttal, unreferenced or footnoted as this seems to be SOP here:

1. I'm hyper-informed on the subject. Ask people who know me, I have plenty of time on my hands to spend on this stuff.

2. Correlation does not imply causation. This is the most basic tenent of science. (for you, BSOE)

3. Temp changes don't always occur in a geological timeframe. There have been many proven short wave heating and cooling cycles.

4. There are plenty of studies out there agreeing w/ man's influence on warming that also hypothesize a significant cooling of the earth fast on the heels of said warmng. This, they surmise,is due to the added water vapor in the atmosphere causing increased solar reflection. Some believe this to have happened fairly frequentlty in the past.

5. Neccessity is the mother of all invention.

Basically, all I am saying is that because the Big 3 and the Times ram something down one's throat daily, that does not a consensus make. It also does not mean that dissenting research is baseless, as many assert. This, as has been stated, is a very complex issue and continued research on BOTH sides is still needed. If you want to live green- than thank you. Overconsumtion is not a noble pursuit. However, I'm not losing any sleep tonight because my truck gets 20 mpg.
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Old 05-22-2006   #29
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steamboat springs, Colorado
Paddling Since: 93
Join Date: May 2006
Posts: 199
switching to hydrogen powered cars will not really help that much. the cars don't make any emissions, but the way that we produce hydrogen does. hydrogen and oxygen are produced from the electrolysis of water. you get two parts hydrogen and one part oxygen, but you are burning elecrticity to make it. thus you get the emissions at the power plant. the only way to get "clean" hydrogen with this method is to only use elecrticity produced from wind or solar power. the same for totally electric powered cars. the production of the electricity is still dirty. what we really need are fuel cell powered cars where hydrogen and oxygen are produced without electrolysis.
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Old 05-22-2006   #30
Join Date: Jun 2005
Posts: 13
Something that I find interesting when people discuss the alternatives to oil consumptionis the discussion of alternative energy possibilities. Hydrogen power as an alternative to oil based energy production is the most talked about idea I seem to hear when discussing this topic. It's as if we have to come to a consensus of the most probable replacement. We don't have to decide that. Some people don't like to admit it, but alternative energy production will be the most lucrative invention since the automobile. And when there is money involved, there is incentive to find the answer. I know, I've heard all the conspiracy theories about big oil buying out ideas and all that but that's as ludicrous as saying that horse traders tried to buy out Ford's idea for the automobile to save their industry. The discussion today is nothing new. There has always been and will always be a heated discussion about what will cause the fall of man. But...we have and will always find an alternative. The future may look doomed from the path we are on only becuase we can't see far enough ahead to the fork in the road.

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