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Old 12-17-2009   #1
Fort Collins, CO, Colorado
Paddling Since: 2003
Join Date: Feb 2006
Posts: 40
GC 2x 1y????

I have an opportunity to run the Grand twice in 2010 (as do most of you, what with all the follow-up lotteries and permit holders always looking to fill spots). I know that the new regs stipulate that we may only run the canyon once every calendar year. So I'm wondering two things:

- Has anyone out there run it twice in a year since the new permitting system was installed?

- I know the rangers check everyone's ID at Lee's. But what do they do with those IDs besides glance at the photo and the name and make sure you resemble that person and correspond with the participants listed on the trip's roster?

Any feedback would be much appreciated.

"Running rivers is the physical expression of intellectual passion."
-Richard Bangs 'The Lost River'
whitewaterjunkie is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12-17-2009   #2
Fort Collins, Colorado
Join Date: Sep 2005
Posts: 213
TWO chances to run the you must have some great friends

I hear they scan the ID's to make sure they are real and often ask for a second form of ID (espically if the person is from NY)

Ha, give me a call when you get back into town...possibilities are flying around for winter rafting trips. Either way we should do some playing outside now that SCHOOL IS OVER. Have fun in NY

There is always a reason not to...
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Old 12-17-2009   #3
no tengo
mania's Avatar
Baytopia, Colorado
Paddling Since: 1876
Join Date: Oct 2003
Posts: 1,768
go for it.. If you want to get fined and banned from the canyon.

oh and the feds just looked at your profile picture and know your name is Dan. good job.
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Old 12-17-2009   #4
Join Date: Feb 2005
Posts: 883

I don't think the Feds have discovered databases yet, so that picture ID information you give them will likely never be cross-referenced.

And don't worry, the TL on that second trip won't care if you risk putting him or her at risk for a big fine and banning, by you trying to pirate through their permit.

Moreover, I'm virtually certain something like this doesn't give rise to reasonable suspicion (and certainly not probable cause) for the rangers to start probing into other aspects of the trip, some of which might involve questionable items, substances, or financial arrangements.

And of course, no-one who might resent you doing this, or have some grudge against you for some obscure reason, will snitch you off-- even if you're using an alternate ID.

It's virtually a no-risk proposition -- go for it!!!

Rich Phillips, with his tongue firmly planted in his cheek...
richp is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12-17-2009   #5
Join Date: Nov 2004
Posts: 60
I'm with Rich. I won't snitch you off, but if you screw it up for the rest of us, we will find YOU.

Have a great float
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Old 12-17-2009   #6
Join Date: Jan 2007
Posts: 175
Originally Posted by whitewaterjunkie View Post
I know that the new regs stipulate that we may only run the canyon once every calendar year.

...Any feedback would be much appreciated.
A) You're using a public forum (where you've got a photo of yourself posted and state your hometown as Fort Collins, CO) that is monitored by law enforcement personnel and thousands of boaters to ask advice whether you should knowingly cheat a Federal river permit system that's one of the most strict in the country.

B) The system you are publicly asking about cheating is one that some boaters have spent huge portions of their lives and large amounts of their personal resources getting into place. Alot of those folks are people who, under the old system, have the connections in the boating world to get hooked up with trips along with the ability to take two trips or more yearly. Those people, primarily in organizations like AW and GCPBA, traveled all across the country to attend meetings, spent large sums of their own money, and put the common good of the boating community ahead of their own interests because it resulted in greater access for more boaters.

C) Should you decide to scam the system, your actions have the potential for people who've spent enormous effort and money getting a GC trip together to be at risk of spending what's supposed to be their first night of a lifetime experience right back in the motel in Flagstaff facing a big fine and/or exclusion from being able to get on the river again.

D) You have the potential of being charged with fraud and prosecuted in Federal courts.

E) By committing to more than one of the trips, one of the Trip Leaders who has been generous enough to invite you along is busting their ass getting the trip together and wasting their trip-planning brain cells by saving a spot on their trip for a person that won't even be able to go when they could be extending the invitation to someone that is considerate of their situation and has integtrity.

So here's your feedback you asked for:

You're an idiot and you're also inconsiderate of others. If I were one of the TLs that offered you a spot on my permit, you'd get bounced quicker than you could say, "but I wasn't really planning to do it if people on Mountainbuzz said it was stupid!"
I'll boat til the rivers run dry
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Old 12-17-2009   #7
Park City, Utah
Paddling Since: 1985
Join Date: Oct 2006
Posts: 700
Had surgery on Tuesday so all of my discretionary funds have been used to pay the deductible. Then last night I was trying to cook the kids dinner with one hand and poured a pot of water on the stove controls and blew out the cook top in our kitchen. Anyway, I was thinking that bank robbery might be a good way to supplement the Christmas fund for the kids. Anyone have any ideas how not to get caught?
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Old 12-17-2009   #8
Durango, Colorado
Paddling Since: 2006
Join Date: Jul 2008
Posts: 154
Ranger's at the Ferry know about the buzz, you better proceed assuming that they just read it. And, they do keep very good records down there. They know this is a possibility.
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Old 12-18-2009   #9
Randaddy's Avatar
Eastern Slope, Colorado
Paddling Since: 1980
Join Date: Jun 2007
Posts: 2,404
How many whiny hall monitors does it take to keep a message board going? The man wants to bend the rules to see the canyon twice. Big deal.

Here's some info for the feds about me.

I NEVER pay for camping. I don't pay the permit fee on the Ark. I've poached multiple sections of river. And that's just the beginning... Come and get me!

To answer your question, my experience is that you can change passengers pretty late in the process and they'll just be looking at your ID. Get a new license with a different address and you would probably be fine. I wish my name was John Smith and I was from California....

P.S. Just some friendly flaming. I like you guys, but I wouldn't let any of you see me running in the halls....
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Old 12-18-2009   #10
scooby450's Avatar
Mesa, Arizona
Paddling Since: 1993
Join Date: Dec 2008
Posts: 259
Originally Posted by Randaddy View Post

P.S. Just some friendly flaming. I like you guys, but I wouldn't let any of you see me running in the halls....
I'll flame: go for it, while you're at it, why not just poop on shore (from the potty thread) and take at least one obnoxious republican and democrat with you....OK- start the white man fire....wait that's not PC.... more flaming !

The Buzz in the off season, what could be more fun!

Whether U Think U Can, or Think U Can't; U R Right!
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