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Frog Rock Thread

61K views 207 replies 68 participants last post by  Ken Vanatta 
#1 ·
Cadster, glad to see you're also an open-boater. I've been using the single blade in Colorado since 1989. And I've probably ran The Fractions at least 20 times.

Well, I guess it does boil down to percentages. However, I'm sorry, but I really can't see the automobile traffic comparison. First of all, I'm talking about swimmers only...not paddlers that stay in their boat. You know, what is the percentage that you will swim through the sieve and live to tell about it vs. swimming through a rapid like Zoom Flume. I give ZF about 99.9% to maybe 80% for the sieve at Frog Rock. Of course, these are merely guesses, but you see what I'm driving at. I've actually not heard of anyone drowning at ZF, but I know that a lot more people swim there than at Frog. So, I'm guessing that one swimmer in five that go into the sieve doesn't go home. What would be your guess? Just curious.

The bottom line: If an inexperienced family member or good friend of yours tells you they are going to run The Fractions with privates or commercials, how would you advise them?

a. Great! Go for it!
b. Make sure your guide portages Frog Rock.
c. I'm loading my boat and am going, too, to make sure you are safe.
d. Don't do it! Run Brown's instead!

Think about it.:wink:

Prater
 
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#173 ·
From Body of missing Breckenridge rafter found in Arkansas River | SummitDaily.com

The body was found toward the center of the river in a 10x10-foot underwater cavern created by piled boulders. Divers entered the cavern through a 4x8-foot opening approximately 6 feet under the water's surface and below a boulder in the center of the river.

It was the first time anyone had seen the extent of what's below the surface at Frog Rock, said Rob White, park manager for the Arkansas Headwaters Recreation Area.

“(The hazard) seems a little worse than any of us thought it was,” he said, adding that boaters should run far left of the feature or portage it.

White said divers described the cavern as having slots high on its walls where water could exit. A diver with one of the teams saw debris in a slot and, upon removing several armfuls of branches, leaves and other debris, spotted the body. They were working in 35-40-degree water.

The hypothesis is that Appelson was drawn into the sieve and then into the cavern through one of the slots before being pinned against a smaller slot through which water can flow.
 
#176 ·
On one hand the dynamics of the whole thing are really interesting, but on the other hand it's scary as hell. Very few people (probably including me) would have the mindset and courage to crawl under that rock and root around trying to find a body. That has to be one nasty, unpleasant, dangerous job.

Thanks to all who helped. I'm glad this part of the whole tragedy has finally come to an end.
 
#174 ·
I, for one, will never bitch about buying a CO State Parks Pass ever again. From the article:

"Three agencies split the cost of the recovery because the effort was not budgeted. Chaffee County Search and Rescue gave $3,000, the Bureau of Land Management contributed $2,500 and Colorado State Parks put in $3,200."
 
#179 ·
I, for one, will never bitch about buying a CO State Parks Pass ever again...
I generally don't anyway, but yeah, things like this are a good reminder as to why they are needed. Those rescuers sure earned it...


On one hand the dynamics of the whole thing are really interesting, but on the other hand it's scary as hell. Very few people (probably including me) would have the mindset and courage to crawl under that rock and root around trying to find a body. That has to be one nasty, unpleasant, dangerous job...
Scary as hell indeed. It was scary enough not knowing what's down there and that this happened. Knowing what it's like makes it even scarier. Kudos to everyone that helped, stuck with it, and even those that have been keeping us informed.
 
#178 ·
Like all of you have said I am glad this part has come to an end. I would also like to say how amazing it is of the boating community that has come together through this event. Boaters have a special bond even if we have never met before. Like O'Hara states in the article about positive energy, may Kim's positive energy live on in the river.
 
#180 ·
Un-friggin-believeable! What a cavern.

Amazing beta, note to self. Posted on the other thread: As Gandhiji (term of endearment for Mahatma Gandhi) once said, and I believe he got it from Jmmanuel, a dear friend of his during his youth: "If you want to see a change in the world, be *the change*". Ergo, for the sake of Kim et al; next time you are at Frog Rock, prepare with the largest rock you can carry in your rig, make the appropriate move, pull out below, hike back up, meditate (think about it for as long as you feel proper) and toss one in for the sake of Kim, us and her like-minded compatriots The railroads and DOTs have been creating multiple fun opportunities and also death traps on the Colorado, Arkansas, Payettes, Wenatchee, Salmon... younameit. They blast, move earth with digging machines and whatever means they have, being humans just like us. Afterwards, we take our gear down those sections and try to have a good time while saying to one another: "If I should die, please remember that I did this having the greatest time of my life, being surrounded by my friends and creation. Leaving this earth any other way would be less fulfilling." So I also remind us but mostly myself (selfishly) of leaving this world, having the best time of our lives instead of some stupid traffic accident or some lame dis-ease, gunshot wound from robbers, etc. Kim, and all your loved ones, please worry not; We would rather go like you did, having the best time of our lives. This is truth, as makabre as it may seem. Love you Derk, may you Kayak the great hunting grounds forever! Next time you are preparing to meet Frog Rock, get yourself the biggest one you can get before the put-in and toss it where you see fit. The railroad and DOTs don't seem to care where and when they blast. You care, so place it accordingly, one rock at a time. Within a year, this should no longer be an issue, regardless of high-water flushes... which do move rocks. (While swimming/being flushed I have heard many rocks roll underwater, which is certainly a strange phenomenon to witness... listen closely next time you are there. It's eerie but really cool. Yes, swam 1/2 mile at CrossMtn at 11K because of equipment failure, flushed onto a rock, climbed on top, supermanned to river right for another less-great swim, lots of underwater time at screaming left turn, 12'standing waves, etc.. don't ask. Swam Gore, Westy... just stay in your boat, ok? Next time, grab a rock, toss it and be part of the solution, not the problem... be the change. No TNT required, just careful placement. SYOTR
 
#182 ·
#187 ·
Did I miss something? What is the source of the information that they are going to use heavy equipment to take out the right side? They built a coffer -type dam on the left out of rocks from the river which they will put back as close to natural as they can. No one is touching the sieve. Does anyone know differently?
Kunst says," Now, three months later, the Colorado State Parks division will go ahead and use an excavator to remove the sieve following an agreement with both the U.S. Forest Service and the Bureau of Land Management that eliminates the need for an environmental impact statement provided the river, along with the sieve, is restored to its original state following the search. "
I don't think that's so.
 
#191 ·
Government attacked at Frog Rock?

The opinion expressed in the letter regarding rafter’s recovery really should be reconsidered in light of the facts. While beating up on “the government” is all the rage these days, with all due respect, in this case, the author doesn’t know what he is talking about. His immediate reaction to “get an excavator and bust open the sieve” may be a reasonable one but is not, by far, the only reasonable approach. Consider that regarding the Frog Rock sieve:
1. The right side sieve was not completely mapped or understood exactly until the recent efforts. (many people swam through that feature without drowning)
2. removal might not result in complete mitigation of the hazard
3. removal would be a lot harder than you think
4. would create a liability for whoever changed the feature
The statement that agencies actually interfered with an efficient recovery process is completely without factual basis. The government agencies were the recovery process. There was no recovery process without the agencies.
The concerns of “environmental purists” and many others including the family were considered by the agencies involved. Consideration of public opinion and comment are part of an appropriate response by government agencies. Consideration of these points of view doesn’t mean that that was the sole basis of the decision. It was a lot more complicated than the letter makes it out to be.
In the end, the decision to build the cofferdam and use the Colorado Springs dive team came after two sustained and monumental efforts by knowledgeable experts. Each of these experts worked for a particular government agency. Every worker involved in the recovery, even volunteers, had specific training and in some cases detailed knowledge of the feature in the river. Volunteers were all members of Search and Rescue organizations and worked for the Chaffee County Sheriff or the Summit County Sheriff and were covered by Workman’s Comp from that office. Not a single person at the scene was an unaffiliated volunteer. Everyone was a paid or unpaid government worker.
The letter is incorrect that the sieve was or will be removed. I just looked at it again today. Only the cofferdam is gone; the native materials used for its construction have been returned to their original locations. The frog Rock rapid is virtually the same as it ever was.
Referring to the use of heavy equipment and the altering of the river in this section, The aquatic biologist responsible for the fish habitat in the Arkansas River specifically told me, “I would never let preservation of fish habitat stand in the way of something like this”. The contention to the contrary in the letter is untrue and preposterous.
I will leave alone for the moment the question of whether it is ethical to remove natural hazards for adventurers. But the attack in this letter against the government is as inaccurate as it is ill conceived. Do you suppose private companies have the resources or take the initiative to perform body recoveries on the most heavily used whitewater river on the planet? Do you think a corporation, perhaps BP or Enron, or Halliburton would engage in this activity for free? Do you think they would listen to the public? In this case there was no alternative to government involvement. I, for one, would tell your friend next time he made the “government will screw it up” remark to remember this Frog Rock recovery effort as yet another example of government doing things right.
 
#192 ·
I went by Frog rock today after mountain biking and I have to say it is changed! Before everyone gets their panties into a bunch, let me say I am o.k. with the changes. Essentially, the rocks that block the left channel at low water have been repositioned more right of center. This just opens up the left channel to be the obvious route to take at low water. I like it as Frog rock itself is still there but you have to really want to go right to get there. Sorry, I did not have my camera with me today but next time I go I will take some pics. I do not know if I will share them as it still might get some people upset. I was a vocal 'do not change frog rock', and this has left frog rock alone. Just the low water line has been 'improved' and in a good way. We shall see if next years high water moves large rocks back into the left channel, but if we are lucky it will remain clear.
 
#193 ·
Good Information!

Based on the above post, it looks like a reasonable solution has been reached.

Many thanks to all those who worked on the rescue and now the
"improvements".

Looking forward to next spring time, running this rapid and paying my respects to Kim, the others who have passed on due to the sieve and thanks to all the rescue workers.
 
#194 ·
Thanks for taking the time to articulate that Bill (zipbak). I know some of the people involved and have followed this issue pretty closely. My take is that there have been really good people involved, both public and private, who have been thoroughly sensitive to the family and the complexities of the situation. To me, it *is* an example of the community, which includes government agencies, coming together and getting it done in the best possible way.
RIP Kim...
 
#196 ·
I ran into Rob White yesterday. It is not my authority to speak on AHRA's behalf. Suffice it to say, there were suffecient experts involved in decisions up there. These were not politicians sitting up at the capital building making distant decisions. They were mostly river enthusiasts with hydraulics and heavy construction knowledge. People with with families, and with love and respect for others lives. They deserve our appriciation for their work. As it turns out, all decisions were complicated by Frog Rock's newly discovered secrets. The rescue mission provided them knowledge that should help them with diagraming and providing new signage and education. Hopefully, this knowledge will be the end of tragedies at this location. I only hope that people realize that there are many similiar dangers in most all rivers. Knowledge and preparedness are essential to success. That said, still the most dangers thing we all do daily is drive a car. Boating will remain fun and rewarding in my book.
Best wishes,
Ken
 
#197 ·
zipbak. Well it is not exactly as it ever was. They dredged the left channel, putting up on the left bank every reason you once needed to skirt around to the right and still miss the sieve. In other words they took all the rocks out of the left channel. It is now a straight shot on the left with no hazards, rocks, or waves.
 
#199 ·
I have followed this thread from the start and respect everyone’s point of view. This year I found out a lot about myself and discovered that life is like a river in many ways. Spending almost every Monday on the Arkansas I met a lot of great friends and good hearted river people. I for one feel the people involved made a great decision by dredging the channel making this stretch of river safer. I would very much like to see some pictures of it. Something needed to be done in this area and I hope that the changes will prevent any future deaths. I am also glad to hear that there will be better signage and education. Although, I did not know Kim she looked like an amazing person (just look at her facebook page kim loved life) and I for one will always say a prayer for her family every time I pass this spot. Rest in peace and god bless you and your family.
 
#200 ·
I have followed this thread from the start and respect everyone’s point of view. This year I found out a lot about myself and discovered that life is like a river in many ways. Spending almost every Monday on the Arkansas I met a lot of reaI t friends and good hearted river people. I for one feel the people involved made a great decision by dredging the channel making this stretch of river safer. I would very much like to see some pictures of it. Something needed to be done in this area and I hope that the changes will prevent any future deaths. I am also glad to hear that there will be better signage and education. Although, I did not know Kim she looked like an amazing person (just look at her facebook page kim loved life) and I for one will always say a prayer for her family every time I pass this spot. Rest in peace and god bless you and your family.
What a great, positive response to this thread. I have not read through this entire thread, nor the other thread from the beginning. But I couldnt agree more with you!

I found this link a few months ago. If it has already been posted forgive me for re-posting it. But, it is inspiring to see a young woman of 23 who has seen more, and done more than most of us.
I am glad that the river remained mostly intact after this, and maybe we will all be a little bit safer with the mild changes that were made.

We will never know, what could have been or happened in the future. For all we know, Kim gave herself so this could safe lives in the future. We never really know what is to be our fate.
RIP Kim, you must have been one cool chic!

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Z8g_QaQb6m0
 
#201 ·
Frog Rock pix

This is what Frog Rock looks like today. You can see that the river right (left side of pic)features are exactly as they were. What has changed is that there is a clear shot on river left. The other thing that is different is that the main flow of the river goes left. It used to go right at many (especially low) levels. Can't wait to see what it looks like at higher water. Imagine three or four vertical feet. Peace.
 

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#202 ·
What an extraordinary special person Kim was as evidenced by all the friends and places shown in the video.
This young lady experienced a lot during her short life.
Like many who have watched this thread from the begining, I sure wish I could have run Browns Canyon with her as Raft Captain.
Thanks for sharing the photos.
Rest in Peace.
 
#204 ·
Unless they put every boulder back exactly the way it was, which there is no way they could have done, then this is no longer a "naturally formed" rapid. This is now a "modified by man" rapid. So in the future, the folks who say "Don't mess with the natural river!" really do not have a case supporting their arguement.
 
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