Frog Rock Thread

[lmyers]

Originally Posted by Theophilus

Since the river bed belongs to the property owner does anyone know whose land it is on?

Pretty sure it's BLM. They are the one's who manage the camping/climbing area, and the other side of the river is not posted as private.

[Theophilus]

Originally Posted by lmyers

Pretty sure it's BLM. They are the one's who manage the camping/climbing area, and the other side of the river is not posted as private.

I was wondering about the rock side. So was it AHRA that put up the sign on river left? BLM? Seems an agency out there finds it worthy of warning the public. Maybe they would be willing to put up a really attention getting sign.

I see somebody has put some road cones on the existing sign to draw attention to it.

[lmyers]

Originally Posted by Theophilus

So was it AHRA that put up the sign on river left? BLM? Seems an agency out there finds it worthy of warning the public.

Yep, AHRA...and I doubt anyone would argue they need to put up a bigger sign, and put better signage at the State Parks access sites upstream (Numbers launch, Railroad Bridge).

[lmyers]

Interesting "letter to the editor" in the Salida Mountain Mail today that I thought I would share:

Possible to clear Frog Rock sieve?
Dear Editor:

In regards to the tragedy of Ms. Appelson, I recall some years ago entering the sieve under Frog Rock in a duckie.

It was October, and the river was around 100 cfs. I recall being in a little cave with a jumble of rocks on the downstream side, my bow bumping against them.

No big deal, because the water was low. Certain and hidden death when water is high.

One wonders if it might be possible to clear the sieve enough to allow a swimmer to flush through. I do not know, but perhaps it is worth looking into.

I think four people have been killed there since the day I was in it. It's a treacherous spot, with the entrance to the sieve hidden at moderate to high flow.

Jeff Auxier,

Salida

[lmyers]

Now that I think about it, wouldn't it be easier to clear the rock from the sieve and dig out the back side of the rock so swimmers will flush through?...just another idea...

[GPP33]

Placing the right boulders either at the enterance or some distance above the enterance could easily prevent people from entering. No need to pour concrete, build walls or blow shit up. A couple of rocks is all it would take. Make em big and they won't move.

[Blade&Shaft]

Originally Posted by GPP33

Placing the right boulders either at the enterance or some distance above the enterance could easily prevent people from entering. No need to pour concrete, build walls or blow shit up. A couple of rocks is all it would take. Make em big and they won't move.

Yep. Keep it simple if anything is to be done.

But all this going back and forth is hurts my brain. I keep changing my own mind as the options/ideas/methods are overwhelming. My gut says nothing is going to change, as I can't see any agencies involved actually doing anything. But the dissertation is good and healthy, just complex and frustrating/upsetting. Shocking to think that in 4ft water at significantly reduced flows a recovery was still not possible...

[RiverMamma]

I must confess that I have allot of very intense & somewhat mixed emotions around this whole thing... deaths on the river, altering rivers, and simply rock sieve's in general...

I was very upset when Quartsite falls on the Salt River was blown up in (1995?) Granted, that was a recirculating hole as opposed to a rock sieve, and designated wilderness... but despite all of our grief for the loss of Quartsite falls in all of it's natural class V glory, years later it is still a beautiful class IV rapid with much character that changes from year to year... my anger has passed, I Love that rapid.

I have been a boater my whole life, I have been a guide my entire adult life, I still fear & respect Rivers... I always will. A small nagging in my gut fears that someday a River will take me... hopefully not until I am old & decrepit & ready to go... but Kim, at 23, is a gut wrenching tragedy.
Places like frog rock scare me. Places like the north west passage (another sieve,) of the rock garden in the Taos Box scare me... and yes, someone said it right earlier, frog rock is a hungry monster! I know of few sieves that have claimed as many lives... some say 4, some say 9... I say too many.

I don't like the idea of altering rivers, heck, I don't even like the idea of play parks! I couldn't imagine trying to alter the north west passage on the Rio Grande... (and it scares me!) but frog rock... I feel that something needs to change... I don't know what kind of physical alteration would fix the problem, or even if it can be fixed, but I think it just might be worth a shot!
I think also though, that the Ark has an un-healthy amount of ego... I don't know how many guides have to die before humility is found. We are not gods, we are guides. We are at the mercy of mother nature & have been given the opportunity to dance with her. I for one, do not take that privilege lightly... I have boated well over 12,000 River miles in my life, and I can only hope that humility coupled with clear thinking will keep me alive for another 30,000 miles and more...
I'm not saying that there is an answer in humility or in concrete... death is, after all a part of life. I though, as a mother, want to stay alive for the sake of my daughter, and also cannot imagine the grief that Kim's mother must be going through... or the mother of the 7 year old boy who died in frog rock in the early 2000's... these thoughts strike me very close to home.
I don't really know what my point is here, other than that this is a very emotionally charged subject & that many of us feel many things here, often conflicting, yet all strong. Lets please try to keep our wits about us here. I hope that they find Kim sooner or later if for nothing more than her families peace of mind. I also hope that AHRA makes the right decisions in any action to be taken regarding frog rock.

[Jonathan Cook]

Make a left line, I do have to say as beautiful as the ark is not to much of it is natural with the road next to it and the tracks. One side is natural and the other blast rock, so if they were going to alter frog rock rapid make a left line and the rocks that were removed from the left side block the way to the sieve not necessarily block it but make it nearly impossible to get there when the sieve is exposed at 700 cfs or higher.

[RCinAL]

Save lives. Do whatever it takes to make Frog Rock Rapid safer. That section of the Ark is a training ground and family playground, not a scenic, natural treasure. No one wants to mess with Mother Nature, but it isn't like this is the Upper Animas either. Most people who choose this section do not believe they are risking death and do not understand the danger the sieve at Frog Rock exposes them to. The people against this (probably a majority are advanced paddlers with the experience and skills to go anywhere they want) will still be against it after 9 more deaths have occured there.

The next life to be spared because of human intervention will be worth any alteration to this rapid IMO, and I would NEVER say this about 90% of the rivers out there. I say the inexperienced and adventurous families with children deserve to have a few places - this section of the Ark included - to get introduced to our sport and be as safe as possible. Experienced boaters who don't mind the danger at Frog Rock usually go elsewhere anyway.

The Nantahala River in the SE is a classic example of a fun, mostly class II stream that has, for better or worse, become a heavily used playground for inexperienced families in rented rafts and duckies. I was on that river the day a 17-year-old boy got trapped and was drowned at the final and largest rapid - a class III with a sticky hole and a severely undercut rock. Several heroic, diving rescues were attempted to no avail. This was the latest in a string of unpleasent incidents there. A passionate debate whether to fill the undercuts ensued.

At the time I was totally against it. Then I spent an entire Saturday afternoon watching people run it one after another. I watched their expressions; saw the joy, excitement, and sometimes fear in their eyes. I noticed all the beautiful, innocent children and the naive mothers who held onto them. Many swam and came within inches of their worst nightmare. A high percentage got thoroughly thrashed in the hole. I cringed every time one got close to the trap, which is only 30 feet from a recovery pool. They had no clue about the dangers that lurked just under the surface. There were warning signs posted upstream. I'm sure they had all signed waivers and been told, but it doesn't sink in in today's tort-driven society. They had probably been forced to hear a speach and sign waivers to ride the school bus. I thought of the dead boy and his family. I thought of my own kids. And I decided there are more important things than some rocks in a river. I was an experienced paddler who could go somewhere else if I chose, but these fun-loving folks had few choices and still deserved a safe, independent, class II thrill. Today I am told the undercut has been filled, but I havn't tried to notice. It is still just Lesser Wesser Falls to me.

Alter Frog Rock. Doze it, dig it, blast it, concrete it, re-route it - whatever it takes. 10 years from now, when this stretch of river is being enjoyed safely by thousands of budding, hardcore river rats, no one will remember what Frog Rock used to look like anyway. Heck, I doubt if there is 100' of this section that hasn't been altered by man to some degree. This sieve might have been caused by man 100 years ago for all we know.

God of the River, please bless those already taken from us, and provide peace and safety to those who will follow in their wake at Frog Rock Rapid.