Thread Tools Display Modes
Old 08-27-2010   #91
Buena Vista, Colorado
Paddling Since: 1998
Join Date: Jul 2008
Posts: 117
After a week of making up 3 months of lost time with the wife I'd have figured that you'd be shooting blanks by now.
Good Humor. I love it.

SilverBullet is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 08-29-2010   #92
RiverMamma's Avatar
ebbing, flowing..., CO, NM
Paddling Since: 1985
Join Date: May 2009
Posts: 239
Originally Posted by Tannhauser View Post
Because every guide in the valley SHOULD know better than to be on the right side. By that I mean that they should be trained and educated about the lethality of the rapid, anything less than that is irresponsible of the trainers, senior guides and the company owners.
I must say that I was trained by a conservative company, as a result am a conservative boater, & train the same way myself... obviously not everyone is... but I don't know if you could hold trainers responsible. I can not imagine rookies not being informed about Frog Rock's notoriety and danger!

I have always felt that the Ark is a River with an ego problem... I know ego is always a scary presence on all Rivers, but the Ark seems to have more than others! To me, Humility is one of the most important aspects of boating, that healthy Respect & Fear of the River is Essential.

I also heard rumor of the incident... I don't know how reliable my source was, but I heard that they intentionally splatted Frog Rock. Which for a boat load of first year Ark guides who haven't learned first hand the Fear & Respect for the River, that didn't sound too far fetched to me.

And though I agree that better signs & heightened awareness are good, I know that they would have done nothing for Kim...

Journeys of a River Mamma Blog "Ever onward, ever forward, ever down the River!"- Ed Abbey
RiverMamma is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 08-29-2010   #93
vail, Colorado
Join Date: Aug 2010
Posts: 6
Were they trained about frog rock?
skipper is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 08-29-2010   #94
surrounded by mountains, Colorado
Paddling Since: 1981
Join Date: May 2004
Posts: 475
In answer to lmyers question, "What are we going to do?", and in agreement with marco and my boating friend Shane, here is what I think should be pursued.

Once the recovery is accomplished and while the low water off-season is upon us, welcome the depositing of rocks from the surrounding area into the sieve area. Just keep dropping them in in quantity. Not all will stay, but an abundance can make a difference. But, do it tastefully as to not scour the surrounding landscape, dig, or leave bear the surrounding beaches. There is an abundance of rocks present and it is possible to pile them in to make a difference. This is possible.

Also possible is the signage improvement and education emphasis throughout all the entities I suggested in my earlier post. This is not only possible, it is the most achievable and essential need.

That is what we can and will do regarding Frog Rock. However, know that hazards exist all over in Granite, Pine, Numbers, Fractions, Brown's, Parkdale, the Gorge, and in all rivers. I warn anyone boating the Numbers right now that at these very low levels (I don't know what it is exactly, but maybe 150-200cfs in there) a swim, or even being upside down, can easily cause an entrapment or submergence into numerous undercuts and sieves throughout the run. Particularly in 4 and 5. These risks are very identifiable with the low water now. Know that they are always there, even when the water is higher. Foot entrapment is especially high risk, but so it head injury or potential fatality in an abundance of locations at anytime. Please know this folks. Dangers prevail everywhere. And yet, many enthusiasts have enjoyed this recreation for many decades. Knowledge, respect, and preparedness are demanded in reducing the risks and enjoying the rewards.

That said, Marco is right. A risk that we truly need to give attention and money towards is the pending toxic water catastrophe present upstream on the Ark. This is a real and imminent threat to the ecology, lives, and livelihoods of the many. However, as Shane advised to me, our efforts and money need to be directed towards getting our politicians to take action towards the massive expense it will require to cure.

As a boating community let's do this: 1) upon closure to Kim's tragedy, we endeavor to continuously drop rocks into that spot (Please don't blast me with continued argument as to whether this can produce any lasting benefit. It is something we can do and all contribute to at our leisure.); 2) motivate AHRA and BLM (even raise money for it if necessary) to improve signage; 3) motivate AHRA to also initiate an education program and contribute our resources to helping them to expand it to the schools, commerce operations, media, etc.; and 4) Get involved in bringing renewed attention to the pending catastrophic danger present in Leadville and pressuring our government to fund its removal. This latter issue being of major significance.

I know that some will discredit the effectiveness and priority of these ideas, but I hope we can realize the reality, limitations, and what we can contribute. I will start by arranging a meeting with my contacts at AHRA to voice these ideas and I will post any feedback received.


Ken Vanatta
No risk, no reward. It is not that we have to, it is that we get to. Preparation and education are essential to self-confidence and success. - KV
"If there is no risk there is no adventure."- Bill Briggs
Ken Vanatta is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 08-29-2010   #95
dark center, of the universe
Paddling Since: 1996
Join Date: Jul 2010
Posts: 20
It might be helpful for you to know that the "sieve" (which is more of a cave with a sieve / channel at the bottom) will, by my estimates require approx 1125 cubic feet (15 x 15 x5 feet deep) of material to fill it. This is roughly 40 tons of rock.

Being a realist I understand that you don't need to fill the entire void to have an effect on the flow. I would bet that if you filled it only half way it would change the only 16 - 20 tons of rock need to be moved. And make sure to tell people not to take rocks from the river right side as that will only encourage more water to go to the right side. Make sure you encourage people to pick up a rock from the river left, there by creating a channel. You know, kill two birds with one stone. As this plan will require moving roughly 1000+/- 30lbs stones it should certainly open up that left side nicely.
Tannhauser is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 08-29-2010   #96
Paddling Since: 96
Join Date: Feb 2009
Posts: 1,373
Jeeze Tannhauser, I'm glad to see there's an edit due to math on yer post beins that you speak with such authority and accuracy about the Frog. But I'm confused. You establish what volume is needed to fill it. Cool, how did you measure it? I bin thinkin I'd bring my tape measure next time I'm there but I only carry a little wimpy ten footer and if its 15' in 2! dimensions, I'm scroooed. Anyway, 15x15x5 is indeed 1125 cubes which my handy little solar powered calculator tells me is is in fact 41.66666666etc. cubic yards. And figgering a ton per yard I could see how yew might round things around and get to 40 tons of rock. So I'm witchew till then. But then yew call for half that being adequate and come up with 16-20 tons. Half of a rounded down 40 is 20. Where's the 16 comin from? And then whut rilly confounded me was when yew went to the 1000+/- 30# stones (I think technically they would be called boulders at that weight). Now yer down to 15 tons. I mean, I know yer just tryin to be helpful and maybe gettin caught up in optimism and whut not but yew wouldn't want to mislead anyone, certainly not Ken right? Anyways, I wus jest wonderin where you were gettin yer numbers from. Maybe yer pullin em out of another similarly sized cave.
Phil U. is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 08-29-2010   #97
vail, Colorado
Join Date: Aug 2010
Posts: 6
Please, it's black and white... Were these guides trained about Frog Rock Rapid?.... Anyone!!.. The rafting company?
skipper is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 08-29-2010   #98
dark center, of the universe
Paddling Since: 1996
Join Date: Jul 2010
Posts: 20
Originally Posted by Phil U. View Post
Jeeze Tannhauser, I'm glad to see there's an edit due to math on yer post beins that you speak with such authority and accuracy about the Frog. But I'm confused. You establish what volume is needed to fill it. Cool, how did you measure it?
gosh dern it Fil,
You got me on that there math. I did poorly on the math section of the SAT's but did reasonably well on the verbal. Now you know my secret shame.

Phil, how can I put this nicely? I mean no disrespect in what follows, I know you post frequently on the buzz and have a lot of experience to draw from.

However...I'll just let my answer speak for itself, how about that. How 'bout dem apples phil?

First "yew" can roughly estimate 1.25 tons for a cubic yard of stone. That is going to change based on the size of the rock, that packing, and what the rock is composed of, sandstone, granite, etc.

Seeing as the cavern is an irregular shape it really is a...oh...I'm sorry...let me back up a minute here Phil.
I guess I forgot to mention that my estimates of the frog rock situation are only based on the 7 hours I spent up there probing under the rock and moving the video camera and being at eye level 6" in front of the undercut for hours during the recovery attempt, when I was tethered in a boat directly in front of the undercut.

Surely my experience there is no match for the speculative powers of those folks on the internet that may or may not have floated by it. I have floated past it 100 x times ( as I am sure many of us here have) and truly had no idea what we were really dealing with. In fact I am still a bit puzzled about some of the hydrology that is occurring there.

Yer dern right fil, I ain't so good at math.. I mean some times that dern 20 foot probe went all the way back under that there rock and didn't touch nuthin, and other times it only went in a little ways, other times it hit wood.

I guess when I probed every inch of that spot in an attempt to recover the body I forgot to mark down the exact soundings and plot it out in three dimensions. What I do know is that most of that rock is undercut, it is entirely likely that the rock is only sitting on some other rocks on the bottom. if anyone is having trouble visualizing this, imagine a giant top half of a clam shell, balanced on an irregular river bottom, with the top of the shell being visible above the water line.

My point is that I don't want anyone else to die up there, I don't ever want to have to look for a parents child in the river, part of me hoping I can find them so I can give the parents some closure and part of me not wanting to find her after she has been in the water for the amount if time that has passed. I understand that no one wants anyone to die...anywhere on the river, but this knee jerk reaction...this, lets blow up the killer spot....lets fill it about lets stop and really look at the causes of deaths, understand the dynamics that cause these horrible events there, and find the most practical, environmentally sound, ethical and legal way to prevent this tragedy from ever occurring again.

I hope that was an adequate answer Phil.
Tannhauser is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 08-29-2010   #99
vail, Colorado
Join Date: Aug 2010
Posts: 6
Again, anyone, were these guides educated by their training program at AVA by senior guides? Have not got a positive to this question. Didn't AVA have problems here a few yrs ago??? WTF??
skipper is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 08-29-2010   #100
Matt J's Avatar
Leadvillian, Colorado
Join Date: May 2005
Posts: 381
In order to be a guide trainer you have to have a certain amount of river miles

so, yes, depending on what you call "senior" the guide trainers had to have a certain amount of experience

knowing AVA I'm sure they had 6 or 8 times the minimum

they did have a "problem" here quite a few years ago

I'm sure someone pointed out the obstacle at Frog Rock in their training, perhaps these particular trainees weren't listening or didn't realize exactly where they were in the section

regardless, pointing fingers isn't going to bring anyone back, and personally I take responsibility for due prudence on any section when I put-in and feel it's part of our creed as paddlers

Matt J is offline   Reply With Quote

Thread Tools
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Trackbacks are Off
Pingbacks are Off
Refbacks are Off

Similar Threads
Topic Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
Fractions/Frog Rock Run - line at House Rock? pbowman Whitewater Kayaking 1 07-01-2009 12:01 PM
Fractions/narrows/house/frog rock Powderplayer Whitewater Kayaking 7 05-23-2009 08:21 AM
Strainer in Fractions above Frog Rock veeee Whitewater Kayaking 0 05-10-2007 03:31 PM
Frog Rock Friday Afternoon or Sunday? willpaddle4food Kayaking | Trip Planner 1 07-18-2005 10:33 PM
changes at Frog Rock? sbj1959 Whitewater Kayaking 1 05-22-2004 11:27 AM

» Classified Ads
NRS Whitewater Kayak...

posted by sunsurfsnow

Brand new, still has tag. Price is $20 less than retail and...

Jackson Superstar

posted by Gary Rempe

Beautiful boat with awesome performance. Very lightly used...

Dagger Nomad Large Blaze

posted by Rendezvous River Sports


Powered by vBadvanced CMPS v3.2.3

Our Communities

Our communities encompass many different hobbies and interests, but each one is built on friendly, intelligent membership.

» More about our Communities

Automotive Communities

Our Automotive communities encompass many different makes and models. From U.S. domestics to European Saloons.

» More about our Automotive Communities

Marine Communities

Our Marine websites focus on Cruising and Sailing Vessels, including forums and the largest cruising Wiki project on the web today.

» More about our Marine Communities

Copyright 2002-2012 Social Knowledge, LLC All Rights Reserved.

All times are GMT -6. The time now is 02:44 AM.

Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.8 Beta 1
Copyright ©2000 - 2016, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.