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Old 08-01-2015   #1
Join Date: Feb 2005
Posts: 749
Fluid, Wavesport, now Liquid Logic

Not the end of Liquid Logic but certainly not great news.

A merger and a layoff this week at Legacy Paddlesports

Better get used to those Jackson backband ropes.

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Old 08-01-2015   #2
San Jose, CA, California
Paddling Since: 1998
Join Date: Apr 2008
Posts: 433
I am not sure what they were thinking when LL stopped having boats in local shops. I bet that was part of the reason they had declining sales.

They make good boats but have failed to create effective structures to offer them to the consumer.

To be competitive they need to find a way to be like the apple store of kayaking. Not amazon.

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Old 08-01-2015   #3
Preacher of the Profit Paddling Since: 1990
Join Date: Oct 2003
Posts: 1,062

Liquid Logic has been having troubles for a long time now. They never really gained a solid market share in whitewater. For most of their history they have succeeded due to having Native sell well in fishing boats. Then they continued to suffer along and lost most of their shipping contracts. They didn't have to pull LL from store shelves, because most dealers stopped ordering the brand due to increased shipping prices before LL made the call. They are trying to save the side of the brand they really love by keeping it in house. That too looks like it has failed. LL built some great hype earlier this year with new designs and bringing Pat Keller in-house to help built back it's Grassroots marketing side. Pat has done a really good job at doing this (I hope he still has a job). But, like buying shoes over the internet finding the right boat for you without sitting in it is tough. That's why we are seeing the first Flying Squirrels and Braaaps for sale so quickly. Hopefully Steve Jordan can save the brand for a second time.
I love to dance, but who needs the music- It throws me off.
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Old 08-01-2015   #4
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Boulder, Colorado
Paddling Since: 2003
Join Date: Oct 2003
Posts: 2,032
Clearly you don't make a move like switching to direct sales because the cash inflow is gushing out of control. The reality is selling whitewater boats is a tough business. I'll bet if you look at those Jackson balance sheets on their whitewater boats they're not exactly getting rich either. LL seems like a cool company that has frequently been on cutting edge of creekboat and river running designs and employed and sponsored a lot of cool people in the paddling world. Let's hope they can keep it going.
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Old 08-01-2015   #5
Preacher of the Profit Paddling Since: 1990
Join Date: Oct 2003
Posts: 1,062

Me too. I really love LL. I know so much history it hurts. I love LL. Woody is my personal hero, Shane is one of the best things to ever happen to WW. I understand the bumps in the road and I love these dudes for making awesome kayaks. When I was a buyer LL was at the top of my list.

The Session and the Session+ changed the game. Honestestly it was my first 20+ end cartwheel and I loved it no matter how bad my feet hurt and got distorted. A couple of changes and it could be the perfect down river playboat today (hint hint- i.e. Mullet).

LL has been resistant to a couple of industry discoveries and their in-ability to adjust has kept there boats difficult to roll and hard to reach the biggest whitewater markets.

I love Liquid Logic hulls, Liquid Logic's outfitting is awesome, and if they would learn to build a cockpit angle I would love that too. Shane needs to try a few other brands and be willing to feel what they are doing. I know he can build an aweome boat, but sometimes we get stuck in our ways.

I am not talking about following trends. I'm talking about advanced ergonomics and boat angles in the cockpit area. A couple of changes and LL will have the perfect boats. Build perfectly.
I love to dance, but who needs the music- It throws me off.
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Old 08-02-2015   #6
lookout mnt., Colorado
Paddling Since: 1989
Join Date: Feb 2008
Posts: 148
Here's how I imagine a LL meeting from about 10 years ago. "Hey guy's playboats are driving the market, I've got a great idea let's stop making playboats!" Fast forward a decade and here's how I imagine a recent LL meeting "Hey Pat you still got the keys to the backdoor at Dagger?" "Well as a matter of fact I do" "Great, how about tomorrow night you go steal the RPM mold and while your there see if they have a typewriter mold. LL will rise from the ashes like a Phoenix build upon a solid foundation of RPM's and typewriters!" Now before the couple LL fanboys on here get their underwear up in a bunch I'm so old school that my playboat is still a vision.
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Old 08-02-2015   #7
lookout mnt., Colorado
Paddling Since: 1989
Join Date: Feb 2008
Posts: 148
don't forget Bliss-Stick. Seriously how many companies is JK going to put out of business?
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Old 08-02-2015   #8
Durango, Colorado
Paddling Since: 1996
Join Date: Jun 2004
Posts: 808
Fluid, Wavesport, now Liquid Logic

1) LL did not selling direct because they wanted to. It was a last ditch effort to save a company that was losing money. Can't make money selling boats for $600 per boat to shops? Try selling them for $900 direct. Problems are that almost no one will buy a boat they cannot sit in first, and their shipping plan was horrendous. I probably would have if their thigh braces were good, but I'm not paying full price for a boat that probably will not fit well.

2) JK did not kill LL. The whitewater kayak business is killing LL. Most of the boat advice threads here are people wanting to find a boat for $300. The culture of kayaking is so cheap that it is almost impossible to make money.

3) I am personally bummed that things are going this way for LL. They always seemed like a "by kayakers for kayakers company." For whatever reason, you can make better money selling slightly updated playboats every year than good creekboats and river runners, but that is just the state of the market.

Sent from my iPhone using Mountain Buzz
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Old 08-02-2015   #9
Paddling Since: 96
Join Date: Feb 2009
Posts: 1,373
The money man behind LL died on the rio a couple years ago...
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Old 08-03-2015   #10
placerville, Colorado
Paddling Since: 1993
Join Date: Apr 2004
Posts: 732
Don- please expound on your "cockpit angle" ideas.

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