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Old 04-27-2011   #31
yakkeranna's Avatar
Canberra, OZ
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Originally Posted by Roy View Post
Says you (with no evidence whatsoever to back up your assertion).

Yet Cap and Trade was a resounding success in getting acid rain under control, and it did so at much lower cost than originally forecast.
Not that I don't think we need to get a international carbon cap and trade program going (I do), but the reason sulfur C&T worked so well was that nearly all sulfur oxide is released from industrial, point-source, smokestacks. A significant amount of carbon emissions comes from non-industrial, non-point sources (i.e. private vehicles).

=> Carbon cap and trade will not be as straight-forward as sulfur cap&trade was- but the sulfur C&T program does show that when monetary penalties are threatened against industry, the incentive for cheaper ways to clean up emissions becomes huge, which is a good thing all-around.

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Old 04-27-2011   #32
Glenwood Springs, Colorado
Join Date: Feb 2009
Posts: 165
Sounds like most of you owe it to our globalness to just stay home. Polluting to "recreate" on a river is so rediculously unnecessary!

Besides I need an offset for my 1990's polluter and river beer drinking induced methane expulsion.

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Old 04-27-2011   #33
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conifer, Colorado
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Originally Posted by Riparian View Post
Jesus, Mr. Subprime, your posts give me a splitting headache. In every way.

Yes Rip, we already know you're a douche with nothing to add except for you left wing queef. No need for a reminder.
Socialism is a philosophy of failure, the creed of ignorance, and the gospel of envy, its inherent virtue is the equal sharing of misery. Winston Churchhill
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Old 04-27-2011   #34
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Little Village, Colorado
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Originally Posted by mr. compassionate View Post
Yes Rip, we already know you're a douche with nothing to add except for you left wing queef. No need for a reminder.
Benjy - I have come to the conclusion that you were a fratboy at Western Michigan University before you got into the subprime loan racket. So did you and your subprime mortgage pals sit around drinking beers on Friday nights and laugh about all people you knew were going to end up in foreclosure?
Uh, I'm just gonna go find a cash machine.
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Old 04-27-2011   #35
pnw, Washington
Join Date: Oct 2003
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Hey you two, leave your continued personal attacks on each other in the Eddy.
"Yesterday I was clever and tried to change the world. Today I am wise and try to change myself." -Rumi
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Old 04-27-2011   #36
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BZN, Montana
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Originally Posted by gh View Post
Hey you two, leave your continued personal attacks on each other in the Eddy.
What, like where this entire thread belongs?
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Old 04-27-2011   #37
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80523, Confusion
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Originally Posted by Bayou View Post
As an Earth Scientist I am ready and willing to answer any reasonable questions on this topic.

Caspermike, yes, carbon dioxide in the atmosphere has been a cause of global warming and cooling trends for millions of years. If the industrial revolution never existed, would Earth's global temperature be rising right now? The answer is yes... but at a much lower rate. To act as if burning fossil fuels at the rate we have for the past 250 years isn't having some control over the accelerated rate of global temperature is just naive.

Let's have a look at CO2 levels over the last 10,000 years:

That graph was taken from the International Panel on Climate Change 4 (2007). They have received some criticism recently but by and large their work is accepted globally as the standard right now.

And let me clear the air about something else: global warming does not mean increased temperatures everywhere... due to continental land masses, ocean currents, and atmospheric circulation, temperature and precipitation patterns are different based on geography (most importantly latitude, elevation, and proximity to an ocean, to name a few). Currently, all major deserts are expanding their footprint and ~95% of glaciers are diminishing (a few anomalous ones in Patagonia and Greenland are increasing). Don't believe me? Go visit Glacier National Park in 25 years. There won't be any "glaciers" left to walk on. But I'm getting off track...

High snowfall in one season does not contribute to the snowpack unless it remains through the warmer summer months without melting. Where do these situations exist? IN GLACIERS. Valley glaciers make up all of the glaciers in the continental US. Valley glaciers are the ones that are disappearing right now.

So let's recap:
1) CO2 levels are increasing many times faster than they typically do due to human fossil fuel consumption
2) Glaciers are disappearing
3) Snowfall only contributes to snowpack where glaciers exist

Conclusion: No glaciers = no snowpack. Even anomalously high snowfall will not reverse the trend of global warming. Using a few years of above average snowfall data to dismiss a trend that has been accelerating for centuries is just plain stupid.

Also: I agree with everyone mentioning the urbanization of deserts (US Southwest) is a ridiculous and unsustainable practice.

Bayou = hero.
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Old 04-27-2011   #38
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Salida, Colorado
Paddling Since: 1996
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It amazes me that the "if" of this is even still a point of discussion. And yes, before any of the antagonists out there yell at me about not contributing in a meaningful way, I'll freely admit that this point of view of bewilderment does not further the "debate." But damn, the more people I see still questioning the "if" of this argument the more I start to think that as population goes up, intelligence goes down...
Please take a look at my Photo Web Gallery.
I also have here some gear reviews (that I might update soon).
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Old 04-27-2011   #39
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vancouver, Washington
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You mean as Fox viewership goes up ....
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Old 04-28-2011   #40
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Denver, Colorado
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Originally Posted by hnw2 View Post
Bayou = hero.
Just trying to add some facts to the discussion.

Fluvial Geomorphology Blog
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