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Old 04-03-2012   #11
Goshen, New York
Join Date: Aug 2010
Posts: 63
It's a great site, especially for checking out reviews before buying used boats, but the virus attacks really drive people nuts. I know it's not your fault, but people tend to get real upset when they have to spend time chasing down viruses that they caught on your site...

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Old 04-03-2012   #12
KSC's Avatar
Boulder, Colorado
Paddling Since: 2003
Join Date: Oct 2003
Posts: 2,032
The personal attacks are way out of line and I appreciate the effort that goes into the site. However, I think some of the reaction you're getting is a noticeable decline in the quality of Eddyflower since Paul ran it.

Seems to me like Paul and crew made the site stand out by putting together a good UI, getting permission to put run descriptions from the CRC on their site, building an active and growing database of runs, and getting the Vertical Challenge going. The database of runs seems pretty stagnate at this point, flow pages aren't being updated and have stale/outdated links, the VC seems to be going downhill since Brian left, site stability is lacking (I haven't even been aware of the virus problems) and if there's an offline Eddyflower presence in the community, I'm not aware of it.

Please don't take it personally. I know I wouldn't want to spend the necessary time in my life to maintain a site like that.

Anyway, I'm finding Eddyflower less necessary. The River Flows app for Android gives a great customizable interface for listing gauges. The River Brain website is catching up with Eddyflower as a database for runs, has an open interface that allows anybody to add/update information as necessary, and the site owner is really quick to respond to input.

Based on this post, Eddyflower is having money and time issues, so my 2 cents is to let creative destruction run its course and start using/improving River Brain and/or use the River Flows app if you have an Android and use Eddyflower as a backup for info you can't find elsewhere.

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Old 04-03-2012   #13
Join Date: Nov 2003
Posts: 1,302
Anyone bitching because they can't get their flow beta from a website about run descriptions is doing their research all wrong. USGS and NOAA have all of the flow planning tools you really need, and it takes half the time to check flows via Water Watch than it does clicking on each run description at Eddyflower/River Brain/American Whitewater.
Kyle McCutchen
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Old 04-03-2012   #14
Join Date: Feb 2006
Posts: 403
You guys should definitely do a Kickstarter fundraiser for an eddy flower flow app. A blanket call for dinero is not likely to get you far, but a Kickstarter campaign for an app just might work and would be faster than The USGS mobile site which is kindof a pain.

Then to monetize your app, all u need to do is charge $1 for flow alerts for the year on a certain river. Free to check flows anytime, but to get an email or text alert when a river hits a certain level, you charge $1 per river. Cutch is a super rich baller so he would definitely do it, but even peeps living in a van by river would pay $1 to know the next river over was at the perfect level. Or go a step further and people can add $1 alerts to their AW membership fees.

I also dig the eddyflower folks and know they are in it for the love. My advice though would be to kicktarter the app, Monetize your shit, then do an IPO and relax on the river the rest of your days. It requires taking a chance but it sure beats getting immature emails from dbags complaining about the free ice cream.

What would everyone alert first? Here's mine:

Big Timber at prime
South canyon at 3k
Big south at Prime
San Rafael at 900
Middle Kings at Prime

I'd pay $5 for that all day long.
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Old 04-03-2012   #15
SLC, Utah
Paddling Since: 1999
Join Date: Aug 2010
Posts: 111
Eddyflower has been a great resource over the years as I got into kayaking. I do find it interesting what some users come to expect for free. Even getting people to contribute their knowledge (which only costs them the effort of typing some stuff in) on Riverbrain has been challenging. As with any community, some give, some take and some hate. Trying to squeeze a dollar out of river rats is not going to happen (from what I've seen). My vote is if you don't like your free services, offer to help them out. Wether that be cheerleading, financial or whatever. You are better off "doing" than "complaining".

As for mobile, riverbrain should have android and ios platforms within the next couple of months.
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Old 04-03-2012   #16
Denver, Colorado
Paddling Since: 2007
Join Date: Dec 2010
Posts: 117
I'm curious what people think about They have been getting quite a bit better for popular runs around Denver over the past year. I like eddy flower and I recognize how hard it is to run a website, but I still keep getting pulled back to AW whenever eddyflower is down.

Full disclosure: I use AWs kml maps for
Whitewater Map American Whitewater river info you can use.
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Old 04-03-2012   #17
Ogden, Utah
Paddling Since: 2008
Join Date: Jul 2009
Posts: 44
I don't understand what makes Eddyflower such a hacher/virus target...Is it because of VC? and the e-money that goes with that? just curious
I have to admit, Eddyflower was probably the sole reason I got into ww kayaking 4 years ago. At the time, the ever-growing Utah run descriptions database, forums, pictures, and boat descriptions was the greatest thing on the internet, IMHO. After the Eddyflower transfer and subsequent crash to usage fallout two years ago, a little piece of me died with it. I know "improvements" to the site were made with good intentions, but "If it ain't broke, don't fix it" seems to always resonate when Eddyflower goes down. Any way to get the site back to it's simpler state? If so, would that solve some of it's problems?
Just thinking out loud, I still like the site...but i used to love it.
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Old 04-03-2012   #18
Denver, Colorado
Paddling Since: 2004
Join Date: Apr 2004
Posts: 3,097
I used to use eddyflower as my #1 flow site. Paul and Co. did a great job keeping the site up, adding content, and creating a one stop shop for flows links, flow beta (H/M/L), run descriptions, pics and videos. I've couch scouted a few of the more difficult runs I have done on eddyflower and really appreciated the info.

Eddyflower is now dealing with the fickle nature of the internet. Downtime, bugs, hackers etc brought the site a bad name, got it booted off mountainbuzz (tough to get kicked off a board full of boating chumps), and most likely significantly dropped usage. I used to check eddyflower every day for flows, now I just use USGS and DWR.

While it may be tough for website hosts, users expect websites to be free, reliable (ie 99.9% uptime), and to not have harmful virus etc. I'm sure its a tough job to keep all 3 of those requirements going simultaneously, but if you don't people will vote with their mouse buttons and find something else that does meet their needs.

While the email from the "hater" was a bit harsh, I think you got it wrong when you said you don't want his business. That email is user feedback that I suspect a lot of users feel (even though they might say it more nicely)... namely that a lack of functionality and continued problems with the site will mean that they don't use it anymore. I would suggest that you would do yourself a favor and take criticism as a potential for improvement instead of firing back at it and making a bunch of excuses why things don't work. Another point... giving the haters air time is probably counter productive. I think the best route is to avoid getting into pissing matches, try and take feedback constructively, and do your best to keep the site up and running. Getting some hate mail simply means you have an audience and an email account.

Also... while its true to say you have kids, a job, it costs money, and you aren't a large corp, it comes off as excuses. All of those issues were true with Paul, but he made it work. I think those issues that you raised are probably common themes for anyone who does work that benefits the whitewater community. Everyone who puts up a website, writes a guidebook, organizes a club or festival, or puts on a rodeo has the same hurdles. Do or do not... there is no TRY! People typically do these type of yhings because they have a passion for it, they see an opportunity, and they make it happen.

When I take a look at the landscape, the site that stands out to me is dreamflows. Its simple, efficient, gives me exactly what I need, and its reliable. Every time I check it, its up and running. I don't see any banner ads, I don't have to pay for it, I see a couple of sponsors in small print at the bottom, but what Chris is doing with dreamflows is awesome! It also sends out the level alerts and has a forum for posting hazards linked to runs. IMO, its the best I have seen. Doesn't try to do to much, but does what it wants to well.

It seems to me that there are 3 general business models for websites 1) self funded, 2) free site with ads and sponsors paying the bills, or 3) pay sites. Most people expect stuff for free on the internet, because they pretty much can get anything they want for free on the internet already, so I think pay sites are pretty much out of the question. As annoying as ads are when they first pop up on a site that didn't used to have ads, its the most consistent business model out there. If you need to bring in revenue, you need ads and sponsors, because its tough to get donations out of the boating community. The self funded sites are some of the best on the net. Kudos to the folks that keep them running.

I wish eddyflower the best of luck, and would love to see it reliable, functional and back to its old self. Good luck!
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Old 04-03-2012   #19
mcoper8901's Avatar
Salmon, Idaho
Paddling Since: 1998
Join Date: Mar 2011
Posts: 96
Eddyflower is great

I've used that site lots before to compare boats. Thanks for that. And Good luck
Keep it Steep
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Old 04-03-2012   #20
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Eastern Slope, Colorado
Paddling Since: 1980
Join Date: Jun 2007
Posts: 2,404
I got a virus from Eddy Flower. I get my information direct from USGS now. Sorry the site has had problems, but your weak security cost me money so I won't be visiting it again. You have to expect that. Kudos to Mountain Buzz for pulling Eddy Flower before it could cause others problems.

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