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Old 04-22-2006   #1
Join Date: Mar 2006
Posts: 79
Diesel vs Super Hero vs Burn?

Currently my only boat is an EZG. I know lots of people paddle play boats in the gnarl. But I'm looking for something where I can paddle IV+ with less fear and more confidence.

The most difficult runs I do are Bailey, Black Rock section of Clear Creek, Gore Canyon at lower water. Weigh 185lb. Would like a boat with great hull speed and easy to roll. Quick, predictable eddy turns a must. Something that surfs well would be a plus but am not willing to compromize stability too much.

Suggestions would be very much appreciated.

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Old 04-22-2006   #2
pnw, Washington
Join Date: Oct 2003
Posts: 3,404
I have paddled the Diesel and the H3, predecessor to the Burn but not on water as hard as you have mentioned. I like the Diesel, it is stable, predictable river runner that breeds confidence. I own one. I liked the H3 but it was a higher performance boat than I was used to at the time. It will carve better than almost any boat I have ever been in. My understanding is that the Burn is less edgy and should be a fantastic boat if you like a boat that performs. I will demo one sometime this year.

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Old 04-23-2006   #3
Join Date: Nov 2005
Posts: 646
Ah, you don't want a creek boat for those runs? The answer to why not may help you choose which boat.

The Diesel is not a good creeking boat. The hull is really wide and flat at the bottom. It's not good for boofing and doesn't have as much secondary stability as do creek boats or your other two candiates. It seems to be more of a surfing river runner. Wavesport marketing will tell you Diesel can do it all, which it can if you are super strong, but this doesn't seem to be you.

The Hero is more of creeker. And it fits your desires of fast and super stable, but it is long. It can be tough to control on your tough runs. It also doesn't have much rocker.

The burn is pretty close to a creek boat. I'm not sure why they don't call it a creek boat. Perhaps only because it has some rails to help carving.
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Old 04-23-2006   #4
Join Date: Mar 2006
Posts: 79
Thanks for the input.

As for getting a creek boat, I thought most creek boats are fairly slow and best for running drops. When I say I've paddled Bailey I should have said that I almost always walk to toughest drops. I'd like the boat to be fairly fast in big water. Just in case I ever see the Poudre at 6 feet again. Or do another winter roadtrip to N.Calif.

As for the Diesel, I wondered about the wide flat bottom. Definitely don't want to give up secondary stablility if that is a trade off.

Plan to demo a couple of boats once Clear Creek starts flowing. Mostly am looking to narrow the choices down. Does anyone know of a Front Range shop that will carry both Super Hero and Burn?

Any other suggestions are welcome.
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Old 04-23-2006   #5
Join Date: Jun 2005
Posts: 159
Confluence Kayaks has the Hero's and Deisel's for demo, also the Liquid Logic Hoss which would be the better surfer of these three.
Not the Burn though.

You may find what the Diesel lacks in secondary stabliity (which I don't notice) the Hero's lack in inital stability(by being narrower and rounder).
Just my .02
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Old 04-23-2006   #6
Join Date: Nov 2003
Posts: 15
I disagree with Basil...the Diesel is a great creek boat. If your a pro or anyone else hucking big waterfalls then maybe a rounder hull might be more in order in case you land flat, but for the rest of us mortals the Diesel is an awesome creeker/riverrunner. With regards to stability, it's as stable or more stable than any creeker I've paddled. I also think it boofs great and with the flatter hull will probably surf/spin better than any other creeker out there. It's a very confidence inpiring boat and extremely comfortable. Unless you're pretty small I would go with the 75...not the 65. One last thing which I especially like about the Diesel is that when you go from a playboat to the Diesel there's not much of a transition regarding the "feeling" of the boat. Due to it's flat hull it feels much like my playboat right from the gitgo. With other creekers it takes more time to get used to the stability and general feel of the boat. I don't really like that when I'm getting ready to tackle something difficult. It sounds like the Diesel would be right up your alley.
Anyway...just an opposing opinion and we all know what they say about them!

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Old 04-24-2006   #7
Join Date: Jul 2005
Posts: 31
I haven't paddled a diesel or a hero, but I did get to try a burn down the numbers yesterday. You can definately tell a big difference between the h3 and the burn, mostly because of the size. The burn snaps into eddies with ease, and it rolls fairly easy. The Burn will charge through holes with speed, has a good rocker. It is pretty much a creek boat, but would does awesome in Big Water (which is what I think they were targeting it at).
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Old 04-24-2006   #8
pnw, Washington
Join Date: Oct 2003
Posts: 3,404
If you take a Diesel and lay it down next to an H3 245, it is obvious that the Diesel started its design from the H3. The size and shape are extremely similar. The Diesel has a little more volume and the edges were eased. So to say that you cant run creeks in it just doesnt make sense to me. I will agree that there are better creek boats out there but to say that it is just a surfing river runner is just an overstatement to me.
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Old 04-24-2006   #9
Join Date: Feb 2005
Posts: 57
After paddling the Diesel ive found that it is great in HUGE water, yet lacked something in smaller creeks. If your a fan of the M:3 or the H:3 the burn would be the boat from you. It almost perfectly bridges the gap between the creekboat and the river runner. you will run almost 90% of the runs in the burn and feel good about it, but there will be those runs that will scare you into a real creekboat.
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Old 04-24-2006   #10
Join Date: Apr 2005
Posts: 82
The Burn is a full-on creek boat. The H3 was/is in it's own right a pretty good creek boat as well. Lots of top notch boaters have taken it down some shit. Some edges can be a good thing. I haven't heard anything official, but I'm pretty sure the M3 will be leaving us soon. After getting in a Burn, I don't see much reason for it. The two boats pretty much overlap for the same type of runs they're designed for. I don't pretend to know jack about old-school creek boats, but I think we're seeing the modern creek boat right now and it has edges!

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