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Old 08-13-2010   #31
RiverMamma's Avatar
ebbing, flowing..., CO, NM
Paddling Since: 1985
Join Date: May 2009
Posts: 239
Originally Posted by tj@cu View Post
You could innertube the numbers and be fine that run is 3-4,
So my x-husband did innertube the numbers as a teenager... at least the first couple anyways. He said they bailed pretty quick & were beat up pretty bad. Granted they were not wearing PFD's... (local red neck kids...) But yeah, he said it was one of the stupidest things he's ever done. So while it is certainly III & IV, I'm not sure I would qualify it as innertubeable, (even with PFD's.)

I agree with the original post that a healthy fear & respect for the River is utterly essential. I also agree with the post that said "There are already too many body's in the Ark." I think that part of the reason for the unusually large number of deaths on this river is simple that there is a seeming lack of that fear & respect for it. The Ark seems to have an extraordinary amount of ego. Something that the River has taught me countless times to check.

Journeys of a River Mamma Blog "Ever onward, ever forward, ever down the River!"- Ed Abbey
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Old 08-13-2010   #32
Richmond, Virginia
Paddling Since: 2010
Join Date: Aug 2010
Posts: 8
I'm taking a beginner whitewater class this weekend, and we are staying on 1s & 2s for our Sunday run, after learning to roll, paddle strokes, etc on Saturday. Don't think I'll be ready for Hollywood Rapids & Pipeline (James River-Richmond, VA class IV/V depending on who you ask) for at least a couple of weeks! I won't have the skills after one class, but I will get them. I'll practice at Pony Pasture.

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Old 08-13-2010   #33
mountains, Colorado
Paddling Since: '92
Join Date: Mar 2008
Posts: 418
The purpose of any writing is to communicate. If the purpose of your post (including whether it is real or fiction) is not understandable by the reader, then the writing is flawed. I'm ok with anyone saying whatever they want on the 'ol buzz. Of course, you have to understand that your thought is going to be challenged by the buzzards. If you aren't comfortable with that then maybe this isn't the place for you.

p.s.-If you are going to try to insert words to misquote me, then you should probably proofread your work. Your cut and paste of the same line and the use of all caps is a dead give away that any 5th grade reader could easily identify.

"I'm not even sure what you are talking about. I'm not even sure what I'm talking about. BUT I'm ANGRY!!! "
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Old 08-13-2010   #34
Idaho Springs, Colorado
Paddling Since: 2005
Join Date: Apr 2009
Posts: 189
I'm just curious what even sparked this debate. Was the newb a friend of yours or did you just witness this? And what happened on the run...did said newb get destroyed or just get flipped a few times?

I think that this is valuable info...people certainly progress at different rates. If the newb is a middle aged slightly overweight person with no athletic abilities then I agree with you that day 3 on the numbers is probably too much. But if newb is an athletic twenty something with a solid roll and a solid head then the situation is different.
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Old 08-13-2010   #35
Idaho Springs, Colorado
Paddling Since: 2005
Join Date: Apr 2009
Posts: 189
Originally Posted by SummitAP View Post

All I know is that high consequence runs can eat experienced people, but all the bodies I've pulled out have been inexperienced people either unprepared or pushing the limits.
And many bodies have you personally pulled out? are you search and rescue? I know i'm relatively young in whitewater experience (8 years) but i've only pulled one body out and he was very experienced. I know most people go their entire careers without pulling out a body...just curious, i mean no offense
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Old 08-13-2010   #36
Denver, Colorado
Paddling Since: 2005
Join Date: Feb 2009
Posts: 86
Newb also has the ability to educate themselves about the dangers on the river. Sometimes we learn about the dangers the hard way, newb can always back out and choose not to go on the run, newb should always be asking questions and scouting the river. If newb is with someone who can't do these things for/with them, then newbie should find a new mentor or deal with the consequences of being stupid. My helmet has a crack in it that tells me I shouldn't have been on clear creek the other day. I didn't ask enough questions that morning nor did I scout enough of the river. I don't blame my mentor for this oversight. We are responsible for our own actions.
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Old 08-13-2010   #37
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conifer, Colorado
Join Date: Jan 2006
Posts: 937
Originally Posted by rgAHOLE View Post
Pine creek is exactly where all newbs should start. If they live and still want to boat then they can roll with my posse and we'll teach 'em the rest.
I appreciate that someone is trying to add some balls to a faggy front range scene. Typical ark scene - a bunch a dudes wearing skirts on the tracks above a class IV hole bitchin about who's paddling, then droppin in below the crux to crush the run out.

Mr. Hardcore himself...we're not worthy to even read your nomination for August D-Bag of the month.
Socialism is a philosophy of failure, the creed of ignorance, and the gospel of envy, its inherent virtue is the equal sharing of misery. Winston Churchhill
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Old 08-13-2010   #38
surrounded by mountains, Colorado
Paddling Since: 1981
Join Date: May 2004
Posts: 475
Quote - "We are responsible for our own actions." - Newbie

However, a person can be naive. Comradery, peer pressure, accolades, bravado, etc., might falsely motivate a person to indulge. Whereas, a good mentor might be appropriate to say "No" for that person. I realize that many people are capable of handling a steep learning curve. Especially these days with such advanced equipment, educational videos, and good mentors. Nonetheless, people can be persuaded to bite of more than they should.

I am an example. When I started I was progressing relatively quickly (30 yrs ago we had disadvantages in knowledge and equipment) and doing class IV in the first couple of months. I was invited to Westwater at 17,000 cfs. The first whirlpool at Little D ate me and I made the 1/4 mile round-trip to the end and back up throough the eddy underwater. It was more than 90 seconds and filled my lungs with water, passed out, and resigned from life. Fortuantely, I surfaced and was resuscitated. I then had to continue on and swam all the continous rapids until before Last Chance. There I spent a long time in shock and hypothermia. Faced with one rapid to go I got back in, got flipped again, and .... ROLLED! The fact is, though, that I wasn't ready for those conditions and it almost took my life and almost made me give up the sport. After a week of hauntings in my head I committed myself to overcome and purposed my goal to paddle every single day for the rest of that season. I can say I am blessed to be alive, but know the need to protect others from their somtimes own naivety. In fact, I told my wife at lunch today that I will be taking my daughter on Brown's tomorrow, but I say my wife cannot go. She's not totally ready. I know what would happen and how it would rattle her. I don't want her to quit the sport. We can hone her skills on Stonebridge to Big Bend a while longer. Again, that is her and not indicative of everyone's learning curves. I'm still willing to be the decider, though, and she is respectful of my leadership.

The same happened to me on Pine Creek when I was learning. I was told "No" on a day when I hoped I was ready and felt shamed to walk it. But, you know, the river was still there when on another day I had since impressed my mentors to agree that I was indeed ready. And I was. Plus, I have never swam Pine in my more than 100 runs of it. However, I have come upon plenty of groups that were, and even a death involved. Therefore, I consider a mentor to have duty in checking a newbie's ambitions. Potentially one might endevour to pursue something against my judgement, and I could be there to rescue, but I don't have to condone it. In fact, in the past I had offered online to possibly be willing to lead others that are up to it, but I have said no to more than one that indicated their questionable skills. I know the river will still be there for them to someday be able to pursue it with all likelihood of success without incident. Pine has potential for harmful swims. -- 'Nuff said.
No risk, no reward. It is not that we have to, it is that we get to. Preparation and education are essential to self-confidence and success. - KV
"If there is no risk there is no adventure."- Bill Briggs
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Old 08-13-2010   #39
Redcliff, Colorado
Join Date: Oct 2003
Posts: 46
Originally Posted by Gary E View Post
I'm not a good mentor. Public service announcement
I think I just pissed myself...
Gary, what's up with the sudden self awareness?

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Old 08-13-2010   #40
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N/A, North Carolina
Paddling Since: 2010
Join Date: Mar 2010
Posts: 325
I am a newb paddler, I've ran the Numbers 4 times in the last 2 days and each time I put in just below the big hole in triple drop. My mentor didn't try to pressure me into running Pine Creek, but what he did do was make it more manageable for me to understand what is going on in there as far as the line goes and the hazards. He also made sure I knew that if I did decide to run it, he would be at the bottom running safety just in case.

I don't know anyone who just hops on Pine Creek without knowing what they are getting into, it doesn't take much common sense to look right as your walking down the rail road tracks and see what your about to run.

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