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Old 08-12-2010   #21
Paddling Since: 96
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"Low water numbers doesn't strike me as particularly outrageous for an aggressive beginner. I consider it mostly class 3, swims tend to be short and the riverbed isn't too bad in terms of hazards and beatdowns compared to most."

Upside down on the Ark sucks.


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Old 08-12-2010   #22
rgAHOLE's Avatar
Farmington, New Mexico
Paddling Since: 2000
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Pine creek is exactly where all newbs should start. If they live and still want to boat then they can roll with my posse and we'll teach 'em the rest.
I appreciate that someone is trying to add some balls to a faggy front range scene. Typical ark scene - a bunch a dudes wearing skirts on the tracks above a class IV hole bitchin about who's paddling, then droppin in below the crux to crush the run out.


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Old 08-12-2010   #23
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Boulder, Colorado
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Originally Posted by Phil U. View Post

Upside down on the Ark sucks.

Not as much as most places in Colorado. Water is moving slow at low water and eddies and pools are frequent.
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Old 08-12-2010   #24
Idaho Springs, Colorado
Paddling Since: 2005
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I'm with you Kevin...I'll take upside down on the ark any day as opposed to upside down anywhere else i've been in CO!
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Old 08-12-2010   #25
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Originally Posted by KSC View Post
Not as much as most places in Colorado. Water is moving slow at low water and eddies and pools are frequent.
Yeah... Colorado, the state of mank... I'd still bring a beginner up through other stretches of the Ark before the sink or swim approach of starting them on the Numbers. Number 5 at medium and low flows is not slow, flips boaters quite well, and will adjust yer face and neck quite nicely.
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Old 08-12-2010   #26
surrounded by mountains, Colorado
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Hey, Phil. Would you like to meet up there sometime after work or on weekends? I'm putting on about 6-6:30 some weeknights and usually at least one of the weekend days.

I was up last night and, although I purposely try to link everything into the hardest lines and turns I can find, I would say the #s are not a "give me". There are plenty of seams, funky currents, and rocks to trip bigginers up, even if they are just running it straight through the main channels. The #s are always a lot of fun. Still, at 80 fpm and Pine at 200 fpm, the current is pushy enough to sweep an upside-down boater into receiving some pretty hard shots potentially. Especially in some of the few shallow or manky places (like #5). Although, most of the run is not bad.

As far as mentoring goes, I'm teaching my wife and daughters to advance their boating. Yes, I have to push them a little bit, but I don't want them biting off too much too soon. One daughter is already about ready for #s if I wanted to take her, but I think that, as Phil and others have posted in this thread, it is wiser to hone her skills further on slightly easier runs and simply seek out the hardest moves we can pursue. I want them to be relaxed and develop style and grace, rather than just charging and hoping they survive something. Which, is most likely what anyone with only 3 or 5 days of boating would be doing in Pine and the #s. Some few might be capable of it, but I don't think I am ever inclined to invite someone without a solid resume into Pine. I just really don't want to deal with their probable carnage. I was doing Pine in my first year, but only after many many days of other boating, back when I used to have time to boat 100 days a year. Again, only 3 to 5 days of experience is not likely enough to expect that a person would not get injured and or then want to give up the sport. And, having dealt with plenty of rescues, we sometimes end up risking ourselves and taking some shots. So, hopefully most people get mentored with proper teaching and progression.

Cheers all!
No risk, no reward. It is not that we have to, it is that we get to. Preparation and education are essential to self-confidence and success. - KV
"If there is no risk there is no adventure."- Bill Briggs
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Old 08-12-2010   #27
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185 lb. waste of space, Keeping Glenwood Springs real
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I didn't spend the time to read about something that concerns the # so I just skipped to the end. My first days on the water were on class III (Bridges) and I feel like within a week I was running Pineview which is more rapid than the Ark could ever have.

The real point is that # sucks and is overrated. That run is for people in rafts to R2 with their baby on. F'n lame run.
970-217-21 six six
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Old 08-12-2010   #28
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Hey Ken, We were up there at the same time last night. Yeah, I like to get out after work 2 or 3 times a week. I'll PM you.

Also, I'm definitely not saying don't push it. I just think there are different ways to get it done. When I came up, a common expression was "if you're not swimming you're not pushing yourself hard enough." Of course those were mostly open boaters saying that. I don't agree with that. We boated 100 days a year our first couple years and worked hard at developing our skills, mostly by paddling many different runs and types of water. After 2 seasons we were paddling the Futa. Yeah I walked Zeta, yeah I snuck part of Terminator, yeah I scouted stuff, but I didn't swim in 10 days of pushing myself there. I'm sure much of my perspective is shaped by the fact that I started boating at 46 with a 12 and 9 year old. I know boating fever but as a parent I didn't allow testosterone to overwhelm my sense of responsibility as a parent and a mentor to my kids and others.

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Old 08-12-2010   #29
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I'm not a good mentor. Public service announcement
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Old 08-12-2010   #30
Paddling Since: 1975
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sometimes bouncing one's head off the rocks on the bottom of the river will yank a lot of that cockieness right out of a fellow and teach him the respect he will have to learn one way or another. Progressing at ones own pace is fine as long as he dosen't bite off more than he can chew.

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