Thread Tools Display Modes
Old 07-13-2009   #11
Masonville, Colorado
Join Date: Jul 2009
Posts: 4
Just to set the record straight --
I live right up above the Little South Fork of the Poudre and visit it almost daily. I participate in outdoor activities of all kinds on this river, however primarily fishing and hiking. I have no issue whatsoever with kaykers in general. Have fun -- but have some respect please! Remember "Leave no Trace" and "Tread Lightly?"
  • The section of the Little South Fork from where it leaves County Road 63E (Pingree Park Road put-in at Fish Creek Trail bridge) to the confluence with the main Poudre is a few miles below the fish exclusion devices intended to protect the Greenback Cutthroat Trout upstream from non-native trout species. This section is not a protected zone for Greenback reproduction.
  • Greenbacks are not unusual in this lower stretch of river below the fish excluders, nor are they common, but they must be immediately returned to the water unharmed if caught.
  • The land from put-in at the bridge to the confluence with the main fork Poudre is mixed private, US Forest Service, and Wilderness area. There are no signs marking the entrance to the wilderness area on the river, as there are no trails or roads at the canyon bottom. One piece of private property exists on the river with wilderness area both up and down stream. It is your responsibility to know where you are at all times.
  • The CDOW did place logs across the river to improve fish habitat many years ago (20-30 years ago) at the same time they closed all the primitive campsites between the Lazy D bridge and the Fish Creek Trailhead bridge. They have not done so elsewhere on the river to my knowledge.
( I am NOT a lawyer, nor do I have any affiliation with the US Forest Service. However, unlike many government agencies, their regulations are actually fairly easy to understand, and this is how I read them. Your mileage may vary.
  • USFS regulations (and wilderness regulations also) prohibit doing anything with live trees other than looking at them, even if they are blocking the river. Portage!
  • With dead trees, you can pretty much do what you want ( including "flossing" the river,) unless you are 'removing it' from the forest, however:
  • If you used a chainsaw to do this in a wilderness area (specifically the Cache La Poudre Wilderness here), you could be in deep trouble.
  • It is illegal to use a wheeled dolly for portaging your kayak in a wilderness area. Same with bicycles, game carts for hunters, wheelbarrows. Really! You can only have wheels if you are handicapped.
My opinon?
Remember "Leave no Trace" and "Tread Lightly?" These codes of ethics are especially important in wilderness areas. They are not laws at all, just guidelines for responsible behavior. Clearing all the logs out of a river so you don't have to portage is really crass and rude to other users of the river, such as fishermen, hikers, backpackers, horseback riders, fish, moose, and other wildlife. Cleaning out a log that could kill you or your buddies while kayaking the river is a no-brainer. Just my opinion, as I said.


littlesouthfork is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 07-13-2009   #12
the fort, Colorado
Paddling Since: 2001
Join Date: May 2006
Posts: 672
that's funny. i've fished the little south several times, always coming up from the main stem, and i've never seen one thing from the DOW about greenbacks being in there, nor have i ever caught one. it's all browns in there, so i think the OP is full of shit.

By the waterside I will lay my head.
Listen to the river sing sweet songs to rock my soul.
the_dude is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 07-13-2009   #13
Fort Collins, Colorado
Join Date: Jul 2009
Posts: 2
There is no doubt there is a population of Greenbacks in there.

Greenback Recovery Plan

From the recovery plan “…At the time of the enactment of the Endangered Species Act in 1973, only two small historic populations of greenback cutthroat trout were known to exist - Como Creek and South Fork, Cache La Poudre River - that conformed to the meristics of the type specimens. These two small headwater streams of the South Platte River drainage collectively represented 4.6 kilometers of stream habitat and supported less than 2,000 greenbacks…”

Also, to alter a protected wilderness stream is likely illegal. It might be a little gray but it seems like it would be shaky ground, perhaps one of the attorneys on here can chime in.

Ask yourself this, would you feel confident talking to ‘John law’ while cutting logs out of a stream in a wilderness area (likely using chain saws), with the presence of threatened and protected species. It might be interesting to pose the question to the US Fish and Wildlife Service as they oversee the implementation of the endangered species act.

As an aside I find this whole thing interesting… “save the poudre (but only if I can kayak the nar)”

Don’t let the fish get in the way!

fishguy is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 07-13-2009   #14
Kayak/SUP Instructor
Theophilus's Avatar
The High Ground, Colorado
Join Date: Mar 2008
Posts: 1,325
"fish exclusion devices" Oh...those are emplaced to keep the non-native trout from driving the greenback out of exsistence. Good luck fighting natures design. Let us know how it works out for you.

BTW - Are you for the elimination of ALL non-native trout? Wouldn't that TRUELY be leaving no trace?
"Let us cross the river to the other side and rest beneath the shade of the trees." ~ Last words of Thomas Jonathan ''Stonewall' Jackson
Theophilus is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 07-13-2009   #15
yourrealdad's Avatar
185 lb. waste of space, Keeping Glenwood Springs real
Paddling Since: 1864
Join Date: May 2004
Posts: 917
Well if it truly was a designated area and it was posted then it probably shouldn't have been flossed. If it is not posted though it seems that maybe there should be some notification for people.

Just so you know it is Gnar not nar, and while I haven't ever done the run (due to too much wood) I don't believe it falls into the Gnar category.
970-217-21 six six
yourrealdad is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 07-13-2009   #16
Force's Avatar
Bham, Washington
Paddling Since: 1997
Join Date: Apr 2004
Posts: 463
While, I think fishguy is generally full of BS he does bring up a good point with respect to wood removal, fish habitat, and how we as kayakers interact with the river environment.

Woody debris has been shown to be good for fish habitat as it provides cover, shading, velocity refuges, increases roughness, decreases velocity, creates pool habitat and generally increase habitat complexity. However it can pose a safety risk to kayakers. Something for kayakers to keep in mind is a complete "flossing" of wood is generally not necessary to safely get by. Maybe a trim on one side or another is enough to allow passage without a portage which would probably not significantly impact fish habitat and is also a whole lot less work for the crew doing the maintenance. It may also be beneficial for both kayakers and fish habitat for a few large jams to remain in the upper part of a run to act in a sacrificial manner. While we don’t like portaging a couple portages aren’t that bad and these jams would serve to collect wood coming from upstream in one or two locations and prevent them from moving downstream into a rapid or somewhere where they could pose a significant risk or hazard.

Just food for thought. Keep it safe out there.
The high side of good - Daniel D
Force is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 07-13-2009   #17
Golden, Colorado
Paddling Since: 2000
Join Date: Mar 2004
Posts: 490
More thoughts.

Don't try to compete with the forest service for the category of "best-in-class" stream flosser. Fishjump was dynamited on the SF of the Clearwater in Idaho (to aid upstream fish migration), eliminating a keeper hole by the way (thank you FS) and not more than two or three years ago when a side stream blew a hundred trees into the Middle Fork of the Salmon, they just came in with dynamite and blew the log jam to splinters. I've also read about a stream in Oregon that had some man-made habitat structures that were blown away by a flood and the whomever put them there (I think it was DOW?) never came back to clean up the cables, etc., leaving a major river hazard. If the river didn't put it there, why should man? We should respect endangered species, but that also means we shouldn't, heavy-handedly, get in the way of the natural course.

Put it another way, if I caught a greenback (which I have), #1 rule, keep it in the water, then get your hands clean and wet using the river before handling, and very gently remove the hook. If it doesn't immediately swim off, guide it back and forth in the water to run some flow through its gills (akin to fish CPR), then watch it swim off.

No boater I have met would ever rudely harm fish habitat. Like someone said above, you can remove the hazard to the boater, and leave the 99% of what was there and needed by the fish. By definition a strainer has a lot of flow underneath it, a lot. That would provide a small amount of shade cover, but not the big shady eddy where a fish could actually live and feed.

Lastly, my public service announcement, then I'll shut up. From someone who's removed a fair amount of wood before. I would encourage all boaters who are contemplating removing wood to consider each situation by weighing several things: #1 is the log visible from upstream far enough ahead for a boater to see it and react. #2 is the log a hazard if the boater is even remotely "on line". #3 if the log is low risk, can you just remove some branches to create a window of passage? There's a bunch of things to consider, but I think most people would agree and understand that most wood is a non-issue, while some trees (blind-corners, stream width, and in fast water) simple gots ta go!

Also, don't be a jerk Fish Guy, get your facts straight before posting with threats. Sounds like you haven't left your chair to see what you're actually talking about. It's laughable someone has called you out for the habitat you described as having been built by man isn't even on the same stretch of water.
Damn it feels good
Schizzle is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 07-13-2009   #18
Masonville, Colorado
Join Date: Jul 2009
Posts: 4
To re-iterate --
The Little South Fork from the confluence at the Poudre to the fish exclusion device above Tom Bennett campground *does* indeed contain Greenbacks, I have caught them many times but certainly not every time I go. However, these escaped over the excluder device during high water, and that long stretch of river through the wilderness area is *not* part of the greenback recovery area.

Kayakers and Greenbacks rarely meet, as the perfect streams for these fish are very small. The Little South (and other local Pingree Park creeks where the DOW is breeding these fish, such as Pennock Creek) in the protected area are only about 3 feet wide and a foot deep.

Even starting a chainsaw in the wilderness area, though, is illegal. Not even federal wildland firefighters are allowed to use them there.

All I can say is, kayakers, please show some respect for your national forest and especially your wilderness areas. If you don't -- you will find the sport under some very stringent regulations, as happened to OHVs.

littlesouthfork is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 07-13-2009   #19
Masonville, Colorado
Join Date: Jul 2009
Posts: 4
Originally Posted by the_dude View Post
that's funny. i've fished the little south several times, always coming up from the main stem, and i've never seen one thing from the DOW about greenbacks being in there, nor have i ever caught one. it's all browns in there, so i think the OP is full of shit.
Learn to fish.
littlesouthfork is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 07-13-2009   #20
Golden, Colorado
Paddling Since: 2000
Join Date: Mar 2004
Posts: 490
Originally Posted by littlesouthfork View Post
Learn to fish.

Damn it feels good
Schizzle is offline   Reply With Quote

Thread Tools
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Trackbacks are Off
Pingbacks are Off
Refbacks are Off

Similar Threads
Topic Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
LITTLE SOUTH FORK POUDRE 4+ AND CLEAN ericnourse Kayaking | Trip Planner 20 06-28-2009 10:45 PM
SOUTH FORK OF THE POUDRE colopaddler Whitewater Kayaking 8 06-19-2008 10:36 AM
South Fork of the Poudre sarkfish River Access & Safety Alerts! 0 06-03-2007 12:37 PM
Little South Fork Poudre? routter Whitewater Kayaking 2 05-20-2005 04:28 PM
New wood and rope on Big South of the Poudre frenchy River Access & Safety Alerts! 3 06-16-2004 11:27 AM

» Classified Ads
Demo Jackson Karma L

posted by 4CRS

Used 2016 Jackson Karma LG whitewater kayak - lightly used...

AT kayak paddle

posted by marilyn anderson

AT kayak paddle approx 191cm

Jackson Karma Small...

posted by Rendezvous River Sports


Powered by vBadvanced CMPS v3.2.3

Our Communities

Our communities encompass many different hobbies and interests, but each one is built on friendly, intelligent membership.

» More about our Communities

Automotive Communities

Our Automotive communities encompass many different makes and models. From U.S. domestics to European Saloons.

» More about our Automotive Communities

Marine Communities

Our Marine websites focus on Cruising and Sailing Vessels, including forums and the largest cruising Wiki project on the web today.

» More about our Marine Communities

Copyright 2002-2012 Social Knowledge, LLC All Rights Reserved.

All times are GMT -6. The time now is 11:39 PM.

Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.8 Beta 1
Copyright ©2000 - 2016, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.