Thanks!
And the Diesel or the Liquid Logic Lil Joe/Hoss?
I don't know. I have not paddled either. But I know people who have and all you have to do is log onto coloradokayak.com and all of your questions will be answered.
GREAT! A picture really is worth a thosand words.
That clears it up perfectly for me.
I grew up in New Jersey, long ago, and a creek was a creek,
about 5 -8 ft wide, trickles, no more than a few feet deep in the center, good for ankle wading in the summer and Ice Hockey games in the winter, though narrow, froze well enough.
"creek" is usually short for STEEP creek. Emphasis on steep. Creek boats are made to resurface quickly, balance between speed and turning (with an emphasis on turning usually), have blunt ends and edges to minimize the risk of tripping over rocks, or pinning on them. Specialty boats for the hairball stuff.
"rodeo boats" "Playboats" "freestyle boats" "park n play boats" or whatever else they are called are the opposite end of the spectrum from "creek" boats. They are smaller, have flat hulls for easier surfing and spinning on waves, lower volume ends so that you can flip on your head sideways, longways, all ways and do all sorts of flippy tricks. They are usually hard edged boats.
"river runner" is the catch-all category for everything else in between. Very hard to define. Some boats are freestyle boats that are puffed up and stretched out a bit to give them a little more speed,and makethem less prone to doing accidental freestyel moves. Other boats are creekboats that have surfing hulls on them.
I import the DragoRossi boats. Within that line of kayaks we have three boats that we would call "river runners"
Gangster is the closest to a creek boat. As a matter of fact, many people use it as a creek boat. It is very round, easy to roll, medium-high volume boat that resurfaces quickly. But, we call it a river runner because it is the most traditional feeling boat of our entire line up. DragoRossi Gangster
Pintail is designed specifically as a river runner, while keeping in mind many of the freestyle tricks of the recent past. It is longish for today's standards (7' 4") but still short enough to cartwheel, spin, and do many wave/hole tricks. It is a very fast boat. DragoRossi Pintail
Stinger is a "spud" boat that is just a little too big to be called a freestyle boat for people under 170lbs. It is an updated version of the original "spud" concept. When everyone started paddling short, stubby boats for freestyle,they figured out that these blunt ended boats were ok for general use as well as light creeking. But, the freestyle boats kept getting smaller and smaller, and eventually they got too short for most people's river running purposes. So, the Stinger is a new take on the older "spud" boats that were long enough to be all around boats. DragoRossi Stinger
Look up these three boats and you will see how different they are, and it will give you a good idea of what sub-category of "river runner" you will be most interested in.
"creek" is usually short for STEEP creek. Emphasis on steep. Creek boats are made to resurface quickly, balance between speed and turning (with an emphasis on turning usually), have blunt ends and edges to minimize the risk of tripping over rocks, or pinning on them. Specialty boats for the hairball stuff.
"rodeo boats" "Playboats" "freestyle boats" "park n play boats" or whatever else they are called are the opposite end of the spectrum from "creek" boats. They are smaller, have flat hulls for easier surfing and spinning on waves, lower volume ends so that you can flip on your head sideways, longways, all ways and do all sorts of flippy tricks. They are usually hard edged boats.
"river runner" is the catch-all category for everything else in between. Very hard to define. Some boats are freestyle boats that are puffed up and stretched out a bit to give them a little more speed,and makethem less prone to doing accidental freestyel moves. Other boats are creekboats that have surfing hulls on them.
I import the DragoRossi boats. Within that line of kayaks we have three boats that we would call "river runners"
Gangster is the closest to a creek boat. As a matter of fact, many people use it as a creek boat. It is very round, easy to roll, medium-high volume boat that resurfaces quickly. But, we call it a river runner because it is the most traditional feeling boat of our entire line up. DragoRossi Gangster
Pintail is designed specifically as a river runner, while keeping in mind many of the freestyle tricks of the recent past. It is longish for today's standards (7' 4") but still short enough to cartwheel, spin, and do many wave/hole tricks. It is a very fast boat. DragoRossi Pintail
Stinger is a "spud" boat that is just a little too big to be called a freestyle boat for people under 170lbs. It is an updated version of the original "spud" concept. When everyone started paddling short, stubby boats for freestyle,they figured out that these blunt ended boats were ok for general use as well as light creeking. But, the freestyle boats kept getting smaller and smaller, and eventually they got too short for most people's river running purposes. So, the Stinger is a new take on the older "spud" boats that were long enough to be all around boats. DragoRossi Stinger
Look up these three boats and you will see how different they are, and it will give you a good idea of what sub-category of "river runner" you will be most interested in.
Some one mentioned to me the "Mafia" was better than the Gangster (another forum). What is the difference between the Mafia and the Gangster?
AND, given that I do not necessarily want to do a lot of Freestyle, but would like OK tracking between the mostly Class II's with lots of flatter water in-between atound here, maybe, eventually learn to relax and play some in the rapids - which Drago rossi fits this sub-catefory?
Gearhead boaters can fill pages with inane detailed discrepencies between the tiniest variations of boat design. But the reason they can do so is their experience in a boat, which is a finely honed sense tuned over many thousands of hours in kayaks.
For what you will be doing, any river runner will work, you don't need a creek boat, and will not enjoy the cramped confines of a playboat. Any kayak can surf, playboats are for more advanced moves.
But the most important thing, as has been said before, is to demo boats. demo demo demo demo, I think someone said? That's the best and most consistent advice you'll get frrom any forum. You will progress and enjoy yourself much more if you take the initial demo period as a chance to find a boat that you feel condifent in.
But the most important thing, as has been said before, is to demo boats. demo demo demo demo, I think someone said? That's the best and most consistent advice you'll get frrom any forum. You will progress and enjoy yourself much more if you take the initial demo period as a chance to find a boat that you feel condifent in.
We plan to, as soon as we can find a place in our area, and I think I found one 1+1/2 hours away - that has WW boats to demo.
As stated, there is a whole spectrum of boats that fall in the river runner category. A lot of experienced boaters will take full on freestyle playboats as riverrunners in bigger water class II,III, IV because they are more fun to play around with. However, as a beginner, you'll find yourself flipping more in a playboat.
The spectrum of riverrunners goes like this, at least in my paradigm. Note that some boats don't even fit any of these subcategories, and some still fall between. Hopefully no one gets angry if I've miscategorized their boat!
Playboats: Lots of options, each company comes out with a new one every other year it seems. Sometimes being on the lightweight end of a playboat's weight range makes it a good riverrunning playboat. Many playboats of a few years ago are also very good riverrunners.
Riverrunning playboat: Usually a playboat that is designed to be playful, yet stable for riverrunning. Some older "playboats" are now branded as this. These are fun in class II-IV and often make very good beginner boats.
Examples: Wavesport EZ/BigEZ/SuperEZ, ACE, EZG; Jackson Fun series; LL CR; Dagger G-Ride, Rx; Fluid Spice; Pyranha Recoil
Playful river runner: Usually a riverrunner than can do a few play moves (spins, squirts, maybe cartwheels) and surfs well but definitely focused on riverrunning. Not for hardcore creeking. Often good beginner boats. Examplesragorossi Pintail; Liquid Logic Hoss/Lil Joe; Riot Booster; Dagger GT; Pyranha Stretch; Jackson Fun series. Alot of older longer riverrunning playboats (1999-2002) fall into this category.
Creekable river runner: Stable nonplayable boats (besides surfing, you can surf most any boat) that can be used for everything up to Class V, including some steep creeking by those who choose to do so. Typically different from a full on creek boat because they have a planing (flat) hull and a little bit of edge.
Examples: Diesel, Mamba, Hoss, Riot Thunder, Pyranha H3, H2, Ammo
Full on creeker. These have been well described by others. Most are displacement (round) hulled.
Also there are tons of pre-planing-hull boats (90's) that are typically much longer and still make good river runners but are quite a bit different than modern boats. Longer, faster, rounder, smalelr cockpits, etc. Examples are RPM, Dancer, and a plethora of others.
I think you would do well to try some out. Don't bother with the hardcore freestyle boats or the harcore creekers for now. Avoid older designs that are really "slicy" (such as riot glide, Dagger Centrifuge, etc. etc.). Some people really enjoy learning in a smaller more playful boat like a EZG or Fun (i have helped a roommate learn in similar boats and he liked the maneuverability and crispness of the handling of those boats better than more voluminous designs such as a Mamba). Some like a bigger boat like a mamba or diesel. At this point there is no ONE boat just for you. Demo stuff. Most anything will work for class II and III. Find one that fits, and don't buy new! Find a good deal on a good used boat thats forgiving; you'll know what you want if you decide to buy new in a year or two.
Last edited by rock_ski_cowboy; 04-27-2007 at 10:46 AM..
jaydipiii,
to answer your question, the Mafia is "better" to some, not to others. It depends on your needs and paddling style. Lots of personal preference and indivudual style (quirks?) goes into opinions on boards like these. (which just means that this is a genuinely diverse community)
The Gangster is just a hair longer than the Mafia, has rounder, more traditional ends, and has a slightly wider flat spot under the seat for added stability. It's just a tad faster than the Mafia. The Mafia is made to be really super easy to turn, and designed for super steep, low volume, tight technical class V. We market the Gangster as both a creek boat and river runner because it really does bridge the gap between both categories. (thus obviously it leans heavily into the creek boat category). It's a good cruiser
For your needs, I'd eliminate the Stinger. Therefore your decision (style wise) would be between a Gangster style boat and a Pintail XL style boat. Both will surf. The Pintail XL will surf better/easier and you will eventually be able to learn some basic tricks in it.
It's a tough decision, I know. And a bit confusing. You've received some good advice from everyone on this board.
I think. in large part to reading and absorbing replies, that for our needs, only Class II's - that we try something older, and thereby cheaper, $200 - $300 range, and go from there. Some one mentioned the Dagger RPM. Any DR's that might be older and suitable?
I think. in large part to reading and absorbing replies, that for our needs, only Class II's - that we try something older, and thereby cheaper, $200 - $300 range, and go from there. Some one mentioned the Dagger RPM. Any DR's that might be older and suitable?
Then as we progress, we could look at new models.
In my opinion from a comfort standpoint alone I would try to stick to the last 4 years or so of boats, they're much more comfy & easier to outfit than the older boats without being much more $$ (and more versatile). For example, the jackson fun series, the wavesport ez, or ezg or the dagger juice are all boats that can run rivers well, are comfortable, and will let you transition into light playboating later. I really feel that you'll be better served by an "almost" playboat that is a good river runner, the turning & maneuverability is so much easier than in a larger boat that I think your confidence will go up quicker.
you should be able to find a newer used boat for 400 or less and get 3 or 4 seasons out of it, as compared to spending 300 on an rpm (or comparable) and wishing you had something different after 3 or 4 months
there's tons of options out there, these few boats are just what pops into my ADD mind at the moment, talk to lots of folks before you spend the $$ on some plastic!
ragorossi Pintail; Liquid Logic Hoss/Lil Joe; Riot Booster; Dagger GT; Pyranha Stretch; Jackson Fun series. Alot of older longer riverrunning playboats (1999-2002) fall into this category.
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