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Old 11-08-2006   #1
Denver, Colorado
Paddling Since: 2004
Join Date: Apr 2004
Posts: 3,097
Cracked creeker / looking for info on boat durability

So I cracked my Nomad 8.5 on the paddle in to bailey last weekend. Bummer. I had noticed accelerated wear on the hull under the leading edge of the seat. Looks like when scraping or boofing over rocks, the plastic flexes a bit and ends up contacting the seat edge and getting worn down quicker than the rest of the boat. The crack started right where this wear happens after I hit a rock. I tallied up the days on the water and I got 42 days out of the boat. Most of the paddling was on the standard colorado IV-V- rocky creeks. Yes, I boofed like hell and paddled in low water conditions, but thats part of the game.

My question is, now that I am looking for a new boat, I've got durability in mind. I really liked the nomad hull shape, and as a bigger paddler 190-200 lbs, the bigger nomad was great for me. I've seen a lot of Jefe's and Jackson boats on the water, and it seemed like personal preference and that they all perform well. Any comments on durability etc. I don't like the thought about laying out the cash for a new creek boat that often, but I don't want to pass up every sweet rock boof I see to try and protect my boat either.

The dagger customer service guy said that since I cracked it on a rock it would be considered "boat abuse" and not covered under warranty. I guess a lot of the paddling in colorado if you want to paddle any month other than june could be considered boat abuse, but damn its fun!

I'm mourning the loss of my trusty Nomad that served me so well and trying to plan for next season.

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Old 11-08-2006   #2
Join Date: Apr 2004
Posts: 254

dsp - i think your boat will last longer if you stay away from the cleer creek runs under 100, discontinue your trend of getting in 4 times as much boating as the rest of us, and quit boofing every exposed rock you see.

however, i think the new hot trend next year will be 6 year old saltos - i think that faded red is also the color of choice. - i might have one in stock for the humble price of 800$.


if not - i think that jackson is coming out with a steel reinforced concrete creeker just for you.

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Old 11-08-2006   #3
Force's Avatar
Bham, Washington
Paddling Since: 1997
Join Date: Apr 2004
Posts: 463
All creekers break in CO if you are getting after it. Move back to the SE or west coast and I bet you never break a creeker again.
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Old 11-08-2006   #4
Join Date: Dec 2003
Posts: 57
What up Ian,

Sucks about your boat buddy! I have heard this problem mentioned before. My Nomad, although not as "used" as yours is getting a little soft right under the leading edge of the seat as well. I had heard that putting some minicell foam right under the leading edge of the seat might help. Does anyone else have any recommendations about this. Or would it "bulge" out the area and just make the area more prone to impact.

A month ago or so I saw that some folks, I think 3 rivers paddle shop up by Crested Butte where selling new nomads super cheap. So you might consider that option. That Jefe looks like a damn good boat too!

Good luck bro!

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Old 11-08-2006   #5
ACC's Avatar
dropzone, Colorado
Join Date: Oct 2003
Posts: 845
I concur that they all break in colorado. I have seen broken daggers, liquid logics, jacksons, eskimos, bliss sticks, wave sports, you name it. We have creeks that are tough on boats.

I am not too excited to hear the response that you got regarding warranty, though. I have respect for team D, and Hobie, etc., but only getting a season out of a creeker isn't great. My experience with liquid logic is that they are reasonable about helping paddlers get a replacement for a reduced cost, seems that w/ a lightly used creeker most companies should do the same.

If durabiltiy is key for you, you might want to look into the prijon hercules. Prijon hasn't had the splitting problems of eskimo and uses the blow-molded htp plastic that has (or used to have) a five year gaurantee. I haven't paddled that boat, but if you can stand having a flat bottom creeker most reviews I have seen are positive.
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Old 11-08-2006   #6
Denver, Colorado
Paddling Since: 2004
Join Date: Apr 2004
Posts: 3,097
To be fair to the dagger folks, the warranty department guy that CKS contacted was nice and prompt in his response. I sent in pics and, yes I hit rocks with the boat, judging by the scratches on the boat, lots of them. I wouldn't say that the boat has seen "light use", just not that many days on the water. I'm not suprised that it won't be covered by warranty, and won't hold it against dagger.

I am bummed that the boat seemed to weaken around the seat though, and I will definitely foam out my next creeker on that spot to prevent it.

I also did go for every boof I saw this season, and I guess the equation is double the boofs, half the boat life. So I'm paying for the fun I had! What a great season though.

I do have a vision of creekers made out of bomber materials that you can beat to hell and not break. The prijon plastic has a good rep, but the hercules seems more like a flat-hulled hybrid river runner more that a creeker.
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Old 11-08-2006   #7
ACC's Avatar
dropzone, Colorado
Join Date: Oct 2003
Posts: 845
yeah, can't say what the hercules paddles like. the reveiws on boatertalk look pretty good though. people are definitely running the sh*t in them, and if you look at the pics of the hull on playak.com you will see that there are some displacement and some planing characteristics. you can always give wildwasser up in boulder a call and set up a free (i think) demo. i don't have any interest in the company or anything, you just got me thinking about the same thing and i am intrigued by the prijon.
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Old 11-08-2006   #8
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Golden, Colorado
Paddling Since: 1984
Join Date: Nov 2003
Posts: 1,879
I've thought about this as a potential business model- in fact, Some european companies already do this with some durable goods (washing machines, etc). Here's the model:

You "lease" your creeker at a premium price (let's say, $1200). For a period of three years, any non-warranty damage is covered by the lease- you can have any part (hull, seat, etc) replaced by the manufacturer at cost if the damage isn't covered under the warranty. So if you crack your hull every year, you can get a new hull from Dagger for a few hundred dollars plus shipping. At the end of the lease period, you have a "trade-in" window for a newer model at a pre-set trade in value (let's say $350). If you trade it in earlier, the trade-in value is a little more -manufactuers canwork with dealers on this so the used boats can be sold at a profit. You get the newest model creeker with a brand-new lease coverage.

Benefits to the User:
* You have a guaranty on workmanship, plus a easy way to upkeep the boat you're used to.
* If you're a Colorado mank master or rock-splatting fool, you can charge with impunity- a mid-season expense of a new hull at cost is easier to take than $900+
* You can recycle the old boat

Benefits to the Manufacturer:
* They have the ability to keep a customer for life- increased brand loyalties
* Those brand loyalties lead to better retail relationships
* Increased administrative costs are covered in the original boat costs.
* They reduce the customer service wrangling over folks that abuse their equipment
*They can recycle the old boat

It would pretty east to run a pricing analysis on this model, based on sales, returns, warranties, and inventory costs. What are your thoughts?

This company 'closes the loop' with carpet- for those interested, check this out: http://www.fastcompany.com/online/14/sustaing.html
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Old 11-08-2006   #9
Durango, Colorado
Paddling Since: 1996
Join Date: Jun 2004
Posts: 807
I am kind of surprised to hear that your nomad kicked the bucket so soon. My old CFS took a beating never broke (even if it was a fat pig of a boat). Seems like the dagger plastic flexes alot but does not break easily.

I second the prijon idea. I am really impressed by their plastic. My very used Embudo still paddles great and its the lightest creek boat I have ever used. I think the Hercules is a bit more planing hull than the the embudo, but the Embudo definitely handles better on low volume creeks than you would think by looking at it. I think the hercules might be similar. The Hercules is a bit bigger than the Embudo, but you are a bit bigger than me. I'd try to demo one if I was you. Remember, when you think a creek boat might be too long and pointy, people used to run these creeks in 11 foot long boats.

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Old 11-08-2006   #10
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Boulder, Colorado
Paddling Since: 2003
Join Date: Oct 2003
Posts: 2,032
I know you're just waiting for someone to tell you to get the Jefe, so just get it over with and buy one. It's all about the autopilot. Aren't they putting out a big boy boat this year?

Of course Jackson has that cross-link plastic, and what about the new Wavesport? Yes, we all know you're secretly pleased about this boat cracking.

I know some people have high expectations for this post, so let me finish with a thought from Socrates: "Get not your friends by bare compliments, but by giving them sensible tokens of your love." By this, I think he means you should take my old boat and buy me a new one.

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