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Old 11-08-2006   #21
oh yeah
Join Date: Oct 2003
Posts: 535
i've got to give it up for the salto. i've swum the gnar with my salto at my side and it's still going strong.
if you ever want to borrow it ian, come on down to the ark and we can fire up some low water mank.


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Old 11-08-2006   #22
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Boulder, Colorado
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Ok, I won't ask how you pitoned off an 18 ft cliff into inches of water. However, it's making me think that going boatin with Joe may be ok, but think twice before following his seal launchs.

I am curious about the Rocker bulkhead though. Is there a description of the system posted somewhere? If this thing is really a revolutionary new design capable of absorbing enough impact to spare broken ankles where other bulkheads would not, that's a huge deal. Can it be retrofitted into other boats?

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Old 11-08-2006   #23
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The idea is that since we don't have any holes in the hull, we had to figure out a good system for the foot brace. Well, it turned out to be the best thing we ever imagined.

Since no holes... we had to build everything internally. A foot brace that is connected to the hull will take all the force of the hull when pitoned, essentially a one to one impact. But with ours being built internally, it is completely independent and will actually flex through the inside.

Kinda hard to explain... have to check it out.

But here is the key. The foot system really needs the foam blocks that we supply to finish the perfect fit. If when you check it out at a dealer, make sure to see that they are in place, if not, just know it gets better when they are...
"Life is not a journey to the grave with the intention of arriving safely in a pretty and well preserved body. But rather...To skid in broadside, thoroughly used up, totally worn out, and loudly proclaiming... WOW !!!! What a ride!!!!!!"
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Old 11-11-2006   #24
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Jackson, Wyoming
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Daggers warranty department sucks!

I also love the dagger nomad, I think it is the best creeker I have ever paddled. I broke a nomad last year on the very first run hitting a log pretty hard and got a 4inch crack in the nose that was clearly a plastic problem and got the same response from the warranty department. I know many who have gotten the same response.

WTF Does you hit a rock mean? Half of daggers pages in catalogs are paddlers firing big rocky drops up. Dagger sure as hell didn't give Pat Keller boats to go play. And he is on this forum through Dagger promoting their boats.

You make the same claim to logic, prijon or pyranha and you'll have a new boat on the way. It pisses me off we need to spend so much for a boat and the company has no accountability with there product.

I've broken many boats, and have always been taken care of. Some reason since dagger is a big corp kayak monster now they could give a shit. No costumer service at all at corp.

Hobie, maybe you could talk to them about offering a shell for the cost of the plastic if Dagger thinks it's somewhat questionable break or crack? I know most claims aren't a warranty, but it would be nice for them to support their product and offer some options not just tell you, you hit river beds. Thats what you folks advertise in your catalogs and videos.

Dagger needs to get this fixed.

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Old 11-11-2006   #25
Preacher of the Profit Paddling Since: 1990
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Broken Boats

Gary is hard on boats. But, not as hard as others. We have one customer that have broken over 15 boats in his kayaking career. Me, I've only broken one in 16 years (BTW it was a WS cross-link).

Some folks are harder on gear than others. I bet if you asked Jim Stohlquist and Rick Stohlquist who's been paddling longer and which one has broken more boats- the answers would differ.

For a small group of folks... They can do more damage in a few weeks than others can do in ten years. It's just a fact. Now should the warrenty be the same for everyone? Is that fair to the company? Maybe kayak companies could offer some kind of boat insurance? For the folks who can break anything. That way when Mr. 20 something and Miss 40 something buy a kayak. Thay can each get the type of protection they need.

Now when it comes to kayak warrenties being handled, each company is different. Some like Pyrahna, Liquid Logic, and Jackson will offer hull replacements (prices could range from shipping cost to $300 + shipping cost). Others like Dagger and Wavesport may replace the entire boat. It all depends on what your local shop can explain to the customer support personal. The type of damage and abuse. The age of the boat. The customer profile. (Did the person get this on Pro-form, or warrenty replacement, shop deal, close-out, factory second, etc..) Not every boat fits every warrenty. But- ALL BOATS CAN BREAK. Creek boats break more than any other, because of where they are paddled. That's a fact.

Your best bet is to always go back to where you bought the boat and start there. It's never better to do it yourself. In may cases it can add months to the process. And, remember it does take time to fix the problem. It's not going to happen over night.
I love to dance, but who needs the music- It throws me off.
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Old 11-11-2006   #26
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dropzone, Colorado
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any input on my earlier recycling question, Don? when you have a boat that cannot be welded, such as a warranty boat that has the serial number cut out, do you recommend that boaters simply throw it in the dump? thanks for any info.
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Old 11-11-2006   #27
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As of right now we don't have any really good options. We've been trying for years to get the boats recycled. Every recycler we've contacted has refused to take the kayaks, because they are not stamped with the type of plactic that they are. I would think this would be an easy fix, but the boat manufactors won't listen. We have pleaded with Confluence Holdings in Easily, SC to take the boats back and they will not. My thought is that the company trucks are loaded with boats coming out west and going home empty. we could become a dumping site, and when the truck comes through we could help fill it. But, I'm sure they would want to charge us some crazy fee for this service.

The collection project at Gualey worked in two different groups. Liquid Logic was collecting boats and so was Jackson. The liner boats got recyled back into plastic, and the cross-link boats got made into asphalt. I wish there was something more we could do locally.

I gave 5 boats to the Denver Museum of Nature and Science, for a Engineering Show. But, still have 15+ boats behind the shop to get rid of. Any ideas... I'm listening.
I love to dance, but who needs the music- It throws me off.
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Old 11-12-2006   #28
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Haven't paddled the HErcules, but for durability, Prijon's plastic can't be beat-- I'm still paddling a rockit from '96. She's starting to wear @ the front edge of the seat too, so I bought another one for $125-- can't get anything else nearly as high performance as that for twice as much. I think Landis still has a few other used ones @ Wildwasser up in boulder if you want to go cheaper than the new option.

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Old 11-12-2006   #29
KVBA TV8 Vail weatherman/Colorado Kayaker, Colorado
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Sorry you pitoned a log and broke your boat. I can't comment on it as I never looked at it but do know that if boats take a huge hit and break it is generally not covered. But to post a blanket statement that the other mfgrs you listed will drop a boat in the mail with same issue is simply incorrect. I broke a boat from one of the ones you listed a few years back and they said "sorry, this boat was abused". Each situation is different. And if anything we have helped a lot of paddlers out. Dagger is not a huge corporation by the way, Confluence is. Sure we are part of that family but one of the smaller members. But the way I have approached it is I don't worry about that. I look after Dagger. And I am very proud of it, our paddlers, and our products. And as of lately all three of those have been kicking some tail. Each boat break is different and treated that way. If you run something and take a big hit by a sharp blasted rock, tree, rebar, whatever it more then likely is boat abuse and not covered. If it is through a mfgrs defect then we will stand behind it. Again, I did not see the break you had so I don't know the whole situation with you. I do know that I had the same Nomad for three years and it is still ready to rock. I try to avoid big pitons however. In addition the plastic we use has a great memory for when you piton and it pig noses your boat. Matt discovered that recently


And Gary, here is a place you can practice avoiding those damn logs and get a bite to eat.
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Old 11-12-2006   #30
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LOL, Hobie.

Yeah I hit a log in a nomad right out of the plastic fairly hard and when the nose pushed in(less than matts from the looks) it cracked 4 inches. The shop took it up with joel and than sent pics and same response as forrest Nobles nomad. You hit rocks!

I was pointing out that Daggers warranties department seems to say the same thing quite a bit to it's costumers. I would be interested in how many warranties dagger gives out per year to regular creekers, not pros. I'm sure you can come up with a good number to make yourselves look good instead of just saying dagger(now the big corp) doesn't need to give warranties because their boats are hard to replace with another company's in my opinion. "Dagger is not a huge corporation by the way, Confluence is" glad to hear the tail wags the dog.

My first boat was dagger and I own a dagger now so I'm not fighting with you. Just making you aware and others that it is very hard to get dagger to stand behind it's product to the normal consumer unless it is pat or tao showing off their product. I thinks it's gay! I've been around hobie, I've broken boats from every company out there, and dagger has changed it's policy. Of course each warranty is different, no doubt. Seems dagger has one stance, and there boats are one of two out there that get it done, so it is what it is.

I'm not talking about rebar, sharp rocks slicing through the boats, i'm talking about legitament cracks. And you've seen it.

"I do know that I had the same Nomad for three years and it is still ready to rock. I try to avoid big pitons however. In addition the plastic we use has a great memory for when you piton and it pig noses your boat."
LOL, oh man your killing me. If you've had any creek boat for 3 years you need to get out more, gore obvouisly isn't cutting it. As for big pitons, I love breaking my ankles on them. Everyone should try it. Come on Hobie, you've done so much for dagger in Colorado whats one more thing. Anyway you can slap me later, maybe on the nf of the payette(where you can also keep your boat in tact) I'll find someone to show you the baby lines so you don't hit any rocks or the big boofs up there.

Call me when you hit jackson and i'll buy you a beer and we can talk boating.


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