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Old 02-08-2005   #21
Gary E's Avatar
Jackson, Wyoming
Paddling Since: 94
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Hmmm,It's a good question to move,plug or leave alone...I know escalante has went through many changes over the years and it is a pain to put in and portage 5 minutes later,yet plugging sieves are tricky and could create more potential dangers....Yet I have plugged them,cut out wood and moved rocks around a creek bed...As a matter of fact a few of us are gonna clean up eldo below harmon falls before it runs...This includes moving many rocks around...I know when we clean class 5 creeks,rarely do we cut all the wood out..We cut doorways and leave wood that you can navagate around if your a paddler that should be on these runs...Whatever you decide,go 100% with your decision and make the plug bomber or leave it and i'll walk it...

Kyle,I think a few rocks in yule would be nice out of the way,lol...Think it's gonna be more of a mind thing then help really,as the yule will still be angry....As for big brother,more like 18ft and I agree,it is pretty straight forward,yet harder than adrenaline imho and the consquences are very bad on big brother as you said...Anyway,hope everyone is having a good winter and a safe summer,hopefully we can get some huge water dayz in this year...The big months are coming up...Keep your fingers crossed


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Old 02-09-2005   #22
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Keep them crossed. I think i've got carpal tunnel due to the last 5 yrs :P

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Old 02-09-2005   #23
Join Date: Dec 2003
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Gary, Let me know if you want any help with Eldo. I really enjoy that creek and wouldn't mind giving back to the effort. That last drop under the bridge also seemed different last year - harder to avoid getting slammed into that tombstone rock thing. I always thought that was one of the better drops. Last year it seemed more painful.
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Old 02-09-2005   #24
Join Date: Sep 2004
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Hey guys.......just some food for thought........

Perhaps this topic has been drawn out, but I'd like to support some of the previous posts on leaving the creek alone....

Escalante is one run I have not yet had the pleasure to paddle, but certainly plan to in the near future as I'm sure many folks do....Having spent a great deal of my paddling career on the East coast, certain runs with similar hazards come to mind..........or perhaps not so similar......but you'll catch my drift..

Now, I really don't want to come across as argumentative or confrontational, and am not trying to ruffle feathers, but just consider........Sieves and undercuts are pretty common on East coast creek runs, in fact some ultra classics have notorious ones.....ie. hydroelectric on the Chatooga or Chief's on the Narrows of the Green.....People used to run the right line at Chief's all day long until someone missed their line, fell over the left side and pinned vertically just underwater, resulting in a most unfortunate fatality........Now........after that, there wasn't any discussion about waiting until the creek was dry and plugging up that sieve, people just took the rapid alot more seriously or walked it alltogether.....Most serious Green aficionados don't like getting out of their boats on that run, but now, some of the most accomplished guys will walk that drop out of principle....

I am of the school of thought that one of the things that makes our sport so unique is that we are interacting with nature while it is in a truly dynamic state, in a special and powerful medium, occurring naturally...........(hopefully that makes sense).....That being said, nature is constantly in flux, and sometimes the results of these fluctuations work in our favor or against.......as boaters.......(i think someone already made a similar point)

I have never seen the rapid in question nor the creek itself for that matter........but hopefully when I finally make it there to run it I won't be boofing any lumps of quick-crete.........

for whatever that was worth....

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Old 02-09-2005   #25
Join Date: Oct 2003
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Can someone post a pic of the Escalante seive in question. Thanks.
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Old 02-10-2005   #26
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MAGS I agree with you and the many others in previous postings. Naturally occurring fluctuations are one component of the sport that makes it so much fun. Although in some areas such as Colorado's many road, railroad side creeks many of the hazards are the result human intrusion. Do these sorts of runs pertain to the above point. Really I'm not confronting anyone either I'm just trying to follow the ethical logic of creek manipulation in Colorado. (My personal rule is keep it simple and leave it alone, not afraid to shoulder my gear (Crazys two cents once again)).
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Old 02-10-2005   #27
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Englewood, Colorado
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A pic would be sweet.

There is a big difference between replicating nature and messing with it, I think. Removing a log is something tht Mother Nature does on her own - I see no problem helping her speed it up.

I understand that concrete plugs eventually break up, but I know nothing about how long that takes. But here's my issue - logs eventually dissolve and go away, then are replaced by new wood. Sieves do not behave the same way. They usually take thousands of years to form and don't re-appear.

I'm not opposed on environmental bases, I just think the long-term river features should be left as is unless the riverbed is already unnatural. "The River - Like It Is" I am not too proud to shoulder my boat and acknowledge that the risk is too great for my liking. Hopefully I'll get to make that decision at the rapid in question this year.

By this logic, it's ok to build a ww park in Denver, BV, or Golden. Also, you could remove the wood in the left side of Four Falls (3rd drop) on Bailey. It would not be ok to plug the sieve on Escalante or to tumble large amounts of rock (by this I mean yards and yards) into the river to enhance the eddy for easier access at the Little D Hole on Westwater.

I've run the rapid in question on the Green, Chief. Although my friends out there are the don't-get-out-of-the-boat types, I now walk Chief (and Gorilla!) every time I go. Other folks have switched to running the left line at Chief, which goes right over/next to (inches) the sieve because they feel that line is more predictable than the right line. I've run the left, and I now think that the risk is just not work the reward. You have to make your own decision, but that decison shouldn't affect the people who run the river tomorrow - no one out east is talking about artificial changes to Chief. I've never heard a single mention of it in several seasons paddling out there.

What happens if you do? Well, then we should also plug the undercut at Frankenstein, dynamite and remove the rock at Sunshine on the Green, plug Hydroelectric Rock and the undercut at Raven Chute on Section IV, etc.

I accept that there are cases where a plug is necessary to save innocent, pedestrian lives - Nantahala Falls is the best example. Raft passengers are deer in the headlights once they fall in, Nanny Falls flips rafts every day, and thousands of people run the drop every day in the summer. But we are not that type of boater. We have river sense and skills, and I think we should respect the river as it is by walking if we are uncomfortable with the risk. We are trained to respond to swims in ways that commercial rafters aren't. Accordingly, I think we need a slightly higher standard.

Having said all that, I don't think it's a horrible thing to plug a sieve, I just don't think that it's the best choice.

Join up, suckas.

"People demand freedom of speech to make up for the freedom of thought which they avoid."
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Old 02-10-2005   #28
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Mountains on the river!!!, Idaho
Paddling Since: 2002
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Its called leap of faith, and its not really a true sieve. The river drops off an 8 foot ledge, on river right there is a hole from top to bottom of the ledge. the middle of the hole is all jagged and crummy, but possible to run throught if u didn't want to shoulder. But you realy dont shoulder your boat anyway, you stop of river left, push you boat to the edge of the ledge and seal launch it, trying to dodge the exposted/semi exposed rocks at the bottom. Most years in the past the hole was clogged with logs and debree which cause the river to back up, therefore pushing the water over to river left causing the falls. last yr, maybe 2yrs not sure, big water flushed the logs out which cause the river to return to the hole. My first post-- boards would be a bad idea, more like returning logs from upstream that would reclog the hole, and allowing what ever other debree coming down to fill in the cracks, so to speak. In debree im talkin about sticks and other natural stuff, because upstream is only ranches and nothing.

-thanks for all the input and info from everyone. THis is probably a topic that others have thought of as well

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Old 02-10-2005   #29
Charc in = charc out
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Seattle, Washington
Paddling Since: 1992
Join Date: Nov 2003
Posts: 475
Could we get a backhoe in there? I think with a backhoe & some plastics we could get the job done right.

P.S. .. Treasure Canyon (M-Creek) is 100% new-age high-tech plastics. The "M" in M-creek is for "Modern Wonder". Not vegan.
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Old 02-10-2005   #30
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Mountains on the river!!!, Idaho
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Posts: 702
ah, no. canyon in desert area, lots of trees, shrubs, private prop.

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