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Old 05-01-2005   #11
Charc in = charc out
ToddG's Avatar
Seattle, Washington
Paddling Since: 1992
Join Date: Nov 2003
Posts: 475
gar -- re [/quote] I just think cpr is'nt gonna be a helpful factor in our sport.. [quote]

i know several people who've been resucitated onsite after gnarly situations. you're familiar with "chaos" after spirit falls right? one friend was a "lost cause" there, but was brought back. ... just sayin' ...

ps, check your PM's. question for you on a totally different matter.


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Old 05-01-2005   #12
Join Date: May 2004
Posts: 26
Great topic for discussion. Statistically your chances of being struck by lightning are better than successful CPR, BUT there is that chance that it will work. I have performed CPR many times, and the only time it was successful was when electricity was introduced. I am a nurse, have worked on an ambulance, ski patrolled, worked in a trauma center and would not boat the class V stuff I do without someone who knows CPR. Learn it once a year, the ratio doesn't really matter (its a standard for the government). Just be as prepared as you can, and hope for the best.

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Old 05-02-2005   #13
whip's Avatar
Salida, Colorado
Join Date: Oct 2003
Posts: 516
I work in er/icu/recovery or. In near drownings many times a victim is apneic and blue and appears to be in cardiac arrest but is not. Rescue breathing will reliably save these individuals if properly administered. CPR usu will not hurt. Time is of the essence. Start rescue breathing in the water before the heart stops. Once it stops chances of survival approach nil. Carry
a pocket mask/one way valve, expect to see some puke.
No amount of money is worth your free time!
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Old 05-02-2005   #14
Join Date: Aug 2004
Posts: 498
I can jump the car. And I have had various first aid cards over the last 25 years. I was just going over CPR in my head yesterday while shopping for a new throw rope. sj
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Old 05-02-2005   #15
Gary E's Avatar
Jackson, Wyoming
Paddling Since: 94
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Hmmm-thanks for the professional input folks..I am required to get certified every year with my job so I have it and have tried it once with a friend and have had some serious trauma to myself about the whole situation...It's brutal and I hope I never am involved in the circumstance like that again,It's easier to get the call...Again thanks for the input...

Todd give me a call about your pm..."chaos"=SCARY...Hate paddling on the lip of that thing...
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Old 05-02-2005   #16
Join Date: Oct 2003
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Learn it and remember it. I'm not a rescue expert but I feel if someone is not breathing they need CPR regardless of their heart's status. I don't think any boater could watch someone not breathing and say, "well I can't find a pulse, so this guy is long gone and cpr won't do shit." As boaters attempting an intense rescue it can be very hard at first to distinguish a pulse anyways. Send someone for a trained emergency rescue squad who can try to shock the heart and do cpr until they arrive--if you can. In a wilderness setting you will have to make the call as to when to stop giving CPR and at this point distinguishing whether or not there is a pulse becomes more important. Granted, lungs and water are a very bad mix, but you have to be prepared either way, no matter if your victim is already drowned.
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Old 05-02-2005   #17
Join Date: Oct 2003
Posts: 388
Perhaps I should soften my earlier post a little. If a guy is dieing on me, I'm not proposing giving up because the chances of success is low. Clearly, I'm going to do CPR and bust my balls to save him.

The impression I get is that most serious paddlers have had CPR some time in their life.

I just didn't like the comparison with jump starting a car. Also, with so many good causes in the world for me to spend my time on, it seems a bit presumptious for someone to say this is the most important thing, which I assumed to mean taking a refresher course every year.

I have some questions:
1) If a guy is dieing on me, I don't care about puke. If he pukes,it probably means he's starting to breath. Does the one way valve increase his chances?
2) I've heard that if you have to resusicitate someone in the wilderness, it is critical to get him to a hospital in an hour. So, even if he starts breathing again in the wilderness, you still have an extreme emergency situation.
3) If the victim is not breathing but his heart is still beating, I assume it is best to not perfrom CPR but only mouth-mouth resucitation. How hard is it to detect a faint pulse on the neck? How much care should be taken to see if there is a faint pulse and not give CPR?
4) And lastly, for us non-EMT types, how often should we get CPR refresher? Once a year is too much. Seems like the main thing to remember is to lean the head back and do the counting and breathing/pump ratio properly.
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Old 05-02-2005   #18
Boulder, Colorado
Join Date: Apr 2005
Posts: 122
Answers to Cstork's questions:

1. The one-way valve is a way to prevent the spread of diseases. Also, having a guy puke on you may cause you to gag too and you may not be able to continue performing CPR. It's tiring as it is, gagging probably wouldn't help matters. I would use one if I had one with me. If I didn't, I'd perform CPR anyway. but it's a good thing to have.

2. I would definitely get someone to a hospital as quickly as possible after resiscitating them. Now, if there is danger of a spinal or neck injury it is critical to avoid moving the patient as much as possible. if possible, get someone to phone for help, or go get help. if in a wilderness situation, make a stretcher to bring the person out if absolutely necessary. I would say the emergency situation is less extreme if the person starts breathing again, but it is still an emergency.

3. It is pretty easy to find a pulse in the neck- even if a body is in shock, blood will still pump to the brain even if it stops pumping to the extremities. If you detect a pulse, give rescue breathing, not CPR. Don't spend TOO much time trying to find a pulse if you don't detect it at first. try 2 or 3 times maximum. count to 10 each time you attempt to find the pulse (sometimes the heart is beating slowly, but it should beat at least a couple of times in 10 seconds.) then do CPR. (I just took my CPR refresher course last week, it's fresh in my mind!!!)

4. the official requirement to be certified in CPR is to get a refresher once a year. It's not that expensive and only takes a couple of hours. If that seems like too much, get recertified as often as you can. My Wilderness First Responder certification needs to be refreshed every 3 years. I would say that even if I didn't get the CPR re-cert every year, i would get recertified every 2 or 3 years. the requirements change fairly often and it's good to have CPR fresh enough in our minds that we don't have to think about it too much when the emergency arises. This year there was one change about abdominal thrusts (used to be called the heimlich maneuver) for an unconscious victim, and for me it had only been a year since my last certification!!!

I guess that's my 4 cents, definitely more than 2 cents
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Old 05-02-2005   #19
Join Date: Feb 2005
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I have never personally been involved, but I have heard stories from two friends with unsuccesful ressecetation attempts on river and the amount of puke is supposedly huge in a drowning person. The puke is a natural reaction to forced air after a person has begun to drown, and is not neccesarily a sign that they are being revived. Both people stressed the neccesity of a facemask so much that I would never even consider not carrying one.
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Old 05-02-2005   #20
Join Date: Jan 2005
Posts: 305

The comparing the jump start came direct from the Red Cross so I felt like I could use it. For 15 years I taught Basic First Aid/CPR and for 10 I taught what used to be called Medic First Aid for SCUBA/water related accidents. I guess I should have asked the question of who can do rescue breathing instead of CPR, it is true that most cases involving CPR don't bring back a dead person but wouldn't you at least want to try?

About checking for a pulse, after teaching Ice Diving Rescue for 10 years a person that has been immersed in cold water 45-50 and below stands a very good chance of being revived compared to a person that just drops on the street. How warm is the water we paddle in?
The problem is in checking for a pulse it can be so low and slow at this point it could go undetected in a victim especially if your fingers have been exposed to cold water for extended periods :think numb. There have been several cases of victims being revived several hours after drowning in cold water.
And yes when a vic is a near drowning they will be spewing all over the place and them aspirating it is a leading cause of death after they have been revived also the water in the lungs washes away the film and leads to them dieing later so they must see medical attention no matter how they feel, and most near drownings will tell you they feel ok out of embarsement.

Don't do anything, just stand there.
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