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Old 06-14-2007   #31
Join Date: Oct 2003
Posts: 64
Ha Golder, stay away from here. You'll get lured into visiting & take a run down NSV or Eldo and break your boat. Both excellent runs, as far as drops go, but also in their ability to break a boat. It's just gonna happen, boats are gonna break.

I was recently pissed when my magnum cracked after 2 years, but compile all the memories/drops/trips compressed into that two years and it's a pretty good bang for the buck, I'd say. What a dream boat too. I welded it with a Bic lighter & some shavings, threw duct tape over the whole mess, and it's currently a friend's III-IV ride--she loves it.

To make a generalization: aside from those purist dirtbags driving from river to river, patching your shit up as you go, eating hot dogs or hummus (you people aren't posting on web forums anyways), a fair amount of the paddling community, from what I can remember of CO, and from what I see now in CA, are driving late-year Tacomas or Subys, have the latest bivy, sleeping bag, jet-boil stove, I-Pod, Laptop, etc. I'm one of these boaters as much as anyone. Everyone bitches about a cracked boat, but I would say look at your lifestyle and see how important creeking is to you, if the reality is that you need to buy a new creeker every year and you can't afford it then listen to a walkman instead of an I-Pod, or start feeding Rufus some good 'ol dog chow instead of eukanuba. Or do the math on what you would save if you carpooled with that really stinky guy who doesn't have a car but will split the gas bill.

I worked in retail long enough to tire of people abusing outdoor gear, coming in and saying: it broke, gimme my money back or another one. I look outside and see the guy's driving around in a Sportsmobile, or whatever, I would be like dude come on... let us make some money off you, off of everyone for piss sake--it's a tough one to make a go out of. Even though most folks in the outdoor industry have nice apparrel, they usually make squat, have little job security/advancement opportunities, and work really hard so we can all play and abuse creekboats in the first place. It seems to me like a lot of the money made in selling creek boats would get spread out and thinned down quickly.

Some of us wil pay 15%-25% in interest fees per-month to credit card companies for most of our lives, that's throwing dollar bills into the wind, so why is there so much grumbling about paying out a grand a year to companies that build the coolest toys ever: creekboats?

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Old 06-14-2007   #32
Golden, Colorado
Join Date: Apr 2004
Posts: 831
Ha ha. That is so true Hartje. Kayaking is a lifestyle sport. Expect to spend a few thousand a year (at least) supporting the habit.

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Old 06-14-2007   #33
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Englewood, Colorado
Paddling Since: 1978
Join Date: Oct 2003
Posts: 882
I rarely go to BT anymore because the format is hard to use. Maybe I should try using a reader, but the Buzz software is far superior.

As for plastic, it's not a planned-to-go-obsolete deal. Crosslink is more durable but it is also much harder to work with safely while getting a good result to pop out of the mold - more bad boats that get scrapped and can't be recycled + increased overhead. IIRC Prijon or Eskimo owns a patent on the blowmolding process and that is the only way to shape HTP into a kayak. Those are the reasons why most boats are made of superlinear plastic today. Kudos to JK for figuring out how to make the crosslink thing work out though.
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Old 06-14-2007   #34
Golden, Colorado
Paddling Since: 2000
Join Date: Mar 2004
Posts: 490
Golder, that thread is hilarious. Are you the same Golder with the nice avatar on the Cali website?

And there you have it folks. . . my boat breaks because I'm a punter and because I live in Colorado, both true. Guess I need to order all my boats with a heavy-duty "mank" package.

I bought a new boat last night Hartje, are you happy now? I know you from hanging out with Matt here. Your best line yet was when Matt called you to ask about conditions, told you what we were going to do, and you're reply was "oh, c'mon, you guys can do better than that." Turned out to be true, but the obvious disappointment it still cracked me up. Felt like I was a teenager talking to dad.
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Old 06-14-2007   #35
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Boulder, Colorado
Paddling Since: 2003
Join Date: Oct 2003
Posts: 2,032
Well, as for the patent on blowmolding, I imagine there are licensing options, but there may be good reasons not to do that.

As for Crosslink, this is exactly my point. Jackson can do it, and were they not doing it from the inception of their company? Surely if they can do it, companies with much deeper pockets can as well, like Wavesport who used to do it.

I think my point stands. There are options, even if they may involve raising the price of the boat slightly. The argument of, you just can't build a creekboat that will last multiple seasons, especially if boating in Colorado, doesn't seem to fly. I guess you could question how big of a problem current plastic really is, but judging from this thread there are quite a few people out there that aren't too happy with the durability of their boats, and even some that are, but for some reason find it acceptable for a boat to only last 1 season.

I don't know, maybe I'm starting to becoming one of those "why is Jackson awesome" people. If they would just improve their outfitting...

As for plastic, it's not a planned-to-go-obsolete deal. Crosslink is more durable but it is also much harder to work with safely while getting a good result to pop out of the mold - more bad boats that get scrapped and can't be recycled + increased overhead. IIRC Prijon or Eskimo owns a patent on the blowmolding process and that is the only way to shape HTP into a kayak. Those are the reasons why most boats are made of superlinear plastic today. Kudos to JK for figuring out how to make the crosslink thing work out though.[/quote]
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Old 06-14-2007   #36
Preacher of the Profit Paddling Since: 1990
Join Date: Oct 2003
Posts: 1,062
If you build it they will creek.


You are spot on. They can build it. They "the evil man" the money hungery boat industry, just choose not to build it. They feel that the customer won't pay twice as much for a creekboat as they would for a play kayak, they don't think people will paddle boats the weigh 60-75 lbs, they don't think the customer will paddle a boat with skid plates- something that is double or triple ply. They can build it tougher- they just choose not to. And that's BS!

But- you have the market figured out. It's all a scam to screw over the biggest segment of kayaking the ultra-hardcore class IV-V paddler. The group of people who do break almost all the boats. (Flatwater users don't know how to paddle that's why they never break anything.)

The reality is that 10 years ago hardcore folks broke boats too, but their weren't as many hardcore paddlers back then. More people doing someting and you increase the numbers. It's not a conspiracy. It's just a numbers game. I hate to say it, but look for increased numbers of broken Jackson boats in the future. Why? Less to do with Crosslink, than it does with the number of users/ abusers.

Big tip "aim for the water and don't hit the rocks". You start using a boat in ways it's not intended and it'll break. Kayaks are made to use in current, not against granite. Just because you saw it in a video, justn't mean that's what the boat was designed for. In "Burning Time 1", Jason Hale was set on fire and set off a big drop twice (the first time the water put him out), kayak manufactures are not saying that your kayak is fire proof- so don't try that at home. So, just because you see some sick footage of some guy cleaning a First D in Chile- doesn't mean your kayak will handle it or is it was meant to hanlde that type on use.

For your dream boat- have they looked into Krytonite? Shhh....That might be the secret everyone is hidding till later.
I love to dance, but who needs the music- It throws me off.
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Old 06-14-2007   #37
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Boulder, Colorado
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Ok, I thought that would probably fire someone up.

So is Prijon, Eskimo, old WS crosslink plastic more durable or not? From what I can tell it's a pretty unanimous 'yes', so that's what I'm going off of. Last time I picked up a Salto or Embudo, it felt like any other creekboat to me. It didn't weigh 70 lbs, it didn't have any "slide plates" or 6 inches walls of plastic, it wasn't made out of kyptonite and it didn't cost double what other boats cost.

Personally, I try not to abuse my boat by boofing every pointy rock I see. I'm only a mediocre boater, so maybe that's why I can't avoid all the rocks on the river, but I've seen some pretty damn good boaters who seem to hit a few rocks as well.

Why did I buy a creekboat? What the hell am I supposed to use for? Can I only run Gore with it? If you buy a creekboat, are you allowed to run Bear Creek? SSV? slides in CB? Or is that not what a creekboat is designed for? Isn't half the point of not putting sharp edges on creekboats so that you don't get hung up on rocks? So why are they designing a boat for something it shouldn't be doing.

Look, I'm sure working in a shop can you make you jaded when you constantly get people in there trying to scam warranties on their equipment that they shouldn't. But I've seen plenty of people that treat their creekboats well, don't even boat super mank like The Source, and still have their creekboats crack in a year or 2.

I don't know if there's a planned obsolesce component to this or not, I was just throwing it out there. But just like buyers aren't really looking at the kayaking industry as a charity, the same is true vice versa. Don, you know the market much better than I, but I imagine there are quite a few creekboats sold, and not just to hardcore V boaters, or so many manufacturers wouldn't be selling them. I doubt that income is considered insignificant.

I guess the word is still out on JK and how great crosslink really is, but (and I can't believe I'm becoming a total JK b-tch) it says something when the owner of the company gets on this board and says he stands by the quality of every boat sold.

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Old 06-15-2007   #38
Join Date: Jun 2005
Posts: 159
Cross link cracks too I can see 3 broken Cross link boats right now one of which broke on Shoshone by a girl just hitting a rock.
That is not counting the one that wore thru that started this post.

There is no bad plastic only bad lines.
"I just stood there and watched the whole thing happen!!!"
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Old 06-15-2007   #39
Denver, Colorado
Paddling Since: 2004
Join Date: Apr 2005
Posts: 95
IMHO this can all be resolved by understanding that there are situations where yeah, a boat will crack and yeah, a boat shouldn't crack. I think if we were all in a group and were presented a slide show of crack causing events, history and the actual boat we would probably all be on the same page as to whether that was unacceptable or acceptable.

A brand new boat is bought. It gets used for a season on class III and IV, mostly running the Ark. It's a second season boater who doesn't pull the fun stuff off of rocks and only touches them when it's impossible to avoid them. This guy boats maybe 50 days in that season and the boat cracks. That's BS and I think something was wrong with the manufacturing in this case. What's troubling is that many boat companies won't warranty it because it's been used 50 times and they'll quote that it was boated hard and the owner got out what he put in.

On the flipside there are guys like me, 220 lbs., who boated st00pid class V MW creeking up to 100 days a season for two years, slid down rocky slides, boofed off of pointy rocks, splatted off of everything and my boat, which had been used heavily on class V creeks for 2-3 years prior to my buying it, looks like new except some scratches and a touch of oil canning. Might be luck, but I feel like I should expect that, to some degree, of a $1K boat.

Then there's the guy, my weight, who boats CO mank (there is a difference) really hard...never touches a river grade less than IV who doesn't avoid a single fact aims for them so that he can have fun. Yeah, I agree, his boat shouldn't last more than a season and I wouldn't be surprised if the death blow came on his first day on the river!

all told, my experience with my creeker may not be the norm to expect from a boat, but I also never pitoned, I avoid sharp and grungy looking rocks and I generally only splatted when the rock was flat/smooth. I think most people do, too, and from that you can expect wear through, but if your boat cracks (not tears) because of a minor impact I don't care how worn through it is, that should not be happening and it is a defect.

I think about it like I think about skis. I spend $1K on a new pair of fatty BC skis, bindings and skins. I honestly expect to get up to 5 years out of that pair. Now, because I'm obsessed with my sports I'll probably spend two solid seasons on them and then sell them, take the profits and re-invest in a new ski.

But what if your skis went limp or de-lamed during your first week on them? Ok, if you're a ski-porn star and are hucking 60 feet large many times a day and every day you probably shouldn't be surprised when your skis seem a touch limper at the end of the week or, better yet, snap in two after a single drop! But for guys like me who hucks a few 25-45 footers on a typical outing, who skis 2-3 days a week, who definitely skis BC more than resort and finds shallow buried objects with his bases on a typical outing should not expect his skis to go limp, delam or break in 2-3 weeks of use barring, as I mentioned, extenuating circumstances. Yeah, if I land super wrong I don't expect them to not break...if I scrape my tails down a rock I'm hucking I expect them to delam and would be damn surprised if they didn't...but you get the point by now.

There are obvious situations where a boat should NOT be breaking, and in those cases we find that small companies are still trying to sly out of responsibility. It happens with skis, too. I know a lot of guys who had Volkl Mantras delam within a few weeks and when they tried to warranty them they were turned around. That was bullshyte.

These companies aren't making much...and when people warranty their gear they lose money. It's like an insurance company-they're going to send a claims guy out to assess the situation, and he's going to use every tool in his box to find a reason to not pay up. It has to be legally cut and dry and obvious and even then they'll try and squirm away. I don't think boat manufacturers are thinking about repeat clientele I think they're thinking about the $ coming OUT of the company and not in and how if they warranty every boat then no one eats.

That said, it's also up to you to decide when it is obvious that you're being excessive in your expectations and we you realize that you pushed your boat too hard. You can't expect them to cough up a new boat when yours breaks in the 2nd season...

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